Unlearning Survival Strategies That No Longer Actually Serve You with Owen Marcus

Mike Forrester: 00:00:01

Well, hello and welcome back my friend this week.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:04

I'm joined by Owen Marcus and Owen has for over 30 years been working in the space

Mike Forrester: 00:00:10

of helping, uh, men through men's groups.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:14

And now is the founder of meld.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:17

And we're going to get talking into how he's working in, in leadership

Mike Forrester: 00:00:21

development and helping us to realize where, you know, we can change.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:27

And where that transformation that we make then carries on to our relationships

Mike Forrester: 00:00:33

and how we show up and it's a real life changing event that's right there for us

Mike Forrester: 00:00:40

just to step into and start taking action.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:44

So really excited to jump in and chat here with Owen.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:47

Owen, how are you doing today?

Mike Forrester: 00:00:48

My friend.

Owen Marcus: 00:00:49

I'm doing great, Mike.

Owen Marcus: 00:00:50

Thank you for having me.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:51

Awesome.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:52

Great to have you.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:53

Well, let's jump in Owen.

Mike Forrester: 00:00:54

What does life look like on the professional side of things?

Owen Marcus: 00:00:58

Uh, professionally I'm starting, excuse me, started a third

Owen Marcus: 00:01:03

company that really works with men.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:06

Um, and it came out of a history of 30 years of having men's groups

Owen Marcus: 00:01:10

and creating a new model for men's groups and really man's work.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:14

It's based on the somatic.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:17

Which is the body and the physiology.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:19

And we can talk more about that.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:21

So, uh, I had my other company, every man, uh, left that, uh, at the end of

Owen Marcus: 00:01:25

the year of my core team created meld.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:28

And yeah, it's doing things like this is putting the word out, uh, developing

Owen Marcus: 00:01:32

programs, delivering programs, uh, talking to people, which I love doing,

Owen Marcus: 00:01:37

uh, working with guys, one to one, uh, and groups and trainings, virtual programs.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:43

Live, um, a little everything.

Owen Marcus: 00:01:45

And I do pretty much all the creative parts from, you know, writing the content

Owen Marcus: 00:01:51

to designing the programs and usually leading the programs with my partners.

Mike Forrester: 00:01:56

That's a lot of hats.

Mike Forrester: 00:01:57

Their own.

Mike Forrester: 00:01:59

Those are the bigger hats.

Mike Forrester: 00:02:01

Yeah, I'm sure there's some smaller ones too.

Mike Forrester: 00:02:04

Oh, man.

Mike Forrester: 00:02:05

Well, what does life look like for you on the personal side of things?

Owen Marcus: 00:02:09

I grew up with Asperger's, which is, you know,

Owen Marcus: 00:02:12

on now they say on the Austin.

Owen Marcus: 00:02:15

Autism spectrum, grew up with dyslexia, and I didn't realize I had dyslexia

Owen Marcus: 00:02:19

until I was in graduate school.

Owen Marcus: 00:02:21

And I was taking a speed reading course and I couldn't speed read.

Owen Marcus: 00:02:25

And then later I realized I had Asperger's and then a few other things.

Owen Marcus: 00:02:29

And I always sort of sensed I had ADHD, you know, I was

Owen Marcus: 00:02:32

always sort of hyperactive.

Owen Marcus: 00:02:34

But, uh, I realized as I was getting into all this work that I was really

Owen Marcus: 00:02:39

tense, and that was a big part of it.

Owen Marcus: 00:02:42

And I see that a lot of us men are way more tense than we realize,

Owen Marcus: 00:02:47

and with that we don't realize the impact that it has on us emotionally,

Owen Marcus: 00:02:51

relationally, physically, health wise.

Owen Marcus: 00:02:54

I'm now 71, close to 50 years diving into this, working on myself, doing a lot of

Owen Marcus: 00:03:00

different kind of therapies on myself.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:03

But also, um, learning a lot of different therapies from really the masters, the

Owen Marcus: 00:03:07

people that developed these particular therapies, that when they started,

Owen Marcus: 00:03:10

they were fringe, and now are now the hottest psychotherapies out there.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:17

And so all that's had an impact on me, and it's really transformed my body, my mind,

Owen Marcus: 00:03:22

and my ability to connect with people.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:24

Uh, so I went from.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:27

You know, literally, you know, being an inch shorter when I went through all

Owen Marcus: 00:03:30

this, I, my body relaxed so much that it literally stretched out an inch.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:35

So that gets you a sense of how tight I was.

Mike Forrester: 00:03:38

Yeah.

Mike Forrester: 00:03:38

That's, that's one of those of, uh, kind of, that's a little gross

Mike Forrester: 00:03:42

for when you're not expecting it.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:44

Yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:44

Yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:03:44

You don't expect that at what was like 23.

Mike Forrester: 00:03:47

Yeah.

Mike Forrester: 00:03:48

There you go.

Mike Forrester: 00:03:49

We'll.

Mike Forrester: 00:03:50

So I know a lot of guys that will look at it when we're struggling

Mike Forrester: 00:03:55

emotionally or mentally with things that have happened in our past.

Mike Forrester: 00:03:58

Owen, and, and they'll just kind of be like, eh, it's something in my head.

Mike Forrester: 00:04:04

But from what you're saying here, like our body is holding onto that stuff.

Mike Forrester: 00:04:09

It's remembering it reacting, whether it's a situation or the memory that

Mike Forrester: 00:04:15

comes back in, how does our body.

Mike Forrester: 00:04:19

Hold on and, and keep track of, you know, those emotional like milestones

Mike Forrester: 00:04:25

and events that have occurred.

Owen Marcus: 00:04:27

Well, that's, that's a good question that a

Owen Marcus: 00:04:29

lot of people should be asking.

Owen Marcus: 00:04:30

Um, so just to back up a little in this culture in medicine and science

Owen Marcus: 00:04:39

and education directly, indirectly, we've been taught that our mind

Owen Marcus: 00:04:44

or our conscious mind or our brain really is in control of everything.

Owen Marcus: 00:04:49

And we'd sort of wish it was, but when we really realized that it

Owen Marcus: 00:04:54

might try to be, but it's not.

Owen Marcus: 00:04:56

So like, I was just talking to a guy before this call, this English

Owen Marcus: 00:05:00

fellow, and he was saying, you know, I went to school and all this, and I

Owen Marcus: 00:05:02

realized that, you know, someone would say, you know, Just let go of it.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:07

I let go of it, but some other part of my head would pick it back up.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:10

I said, you got it.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:11

Because, um, if life was a math problem, if it was something that was truly

Owen Marcus: 00:05:18

disintellectual, we'd all be very happy and, you know, have everything we want.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:23

But what I realized and now science is starting to realize is that our

Owen Marcus: 00:05:28

conscious brain is just sort of the tip of the iceberg, but really what

Owen Marcus: 00:05:32

Sets us up to succeed or fail in life and, and be healthy and how much

Owen Marcus: 00:05:37

pleasure we're going to get from life.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:39

There's all these other components, which are essentially the physical

Owen Marcus: 00:05:42

body, which I can talk about.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:44

Our unconscious mind, which, you know, we're sort of aware of.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:48

I mean, that's what's operating when we're dreaming.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:50

And our emotions.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:52

And those three are sort of like three legs of the stool.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:56

And on top of the stool is our conscious mind.

Owen Marcus: 00:05:59

And we think everything.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:00

We, again, like to think everything.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:01

Is.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:02

ruled by and can be controlled by the conscious mind, but it can't.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:06

And what people are realizing is that a lot of therapy has been out there

Owen Marcus: 00:06:09

for quite a few years has been more cognitive or analytical, which is to

Owen Marcus: 00:06:14

say more taught down and it has its place and it can work for a while.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:19

But what I've seen was for so many men, Because, you know, we want to change and

Owen Marcus: 00:06:23

we're bright, and so we come at it from the intellectual standpoint and someone

Owen Marcus: 00:06:28

gets us a thing to do, and, oh, that's really good, I should do that, or reasons

Owen Marcus: 00:06:32

to do that, oh, yeah, that makes sense, and we try, and then we fail at it, then

Owen Marcus: 00:06:36

we beat ourselves up, and we try something else, we fail at it, we beat ourselves

Owen Marcus: 00:06:40

up, and then we feel worse and worse about ourselves, and then we start to

Owen Marcus: 00:06:44

feel we're not good enough, we're never going to succeed, you know, professionally

Owen Marcus: 00:06:48

or relationships, and here's the deal.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:52

This is what I essentially tell every guy.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:54

The problem is not you in its essence.

Owen Marcus: 00:06:57

Yes, you're going to have to solve it, but you know, you're not bad.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:00

You're not broken.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:01

It's a combination of trauma or serial micro traumas, which is like stress and

Owen Marcus: 00:07:07

how it's impacted these other three parts of you and the culture we've grown up in.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:13

And when we can not just understand it, but unpack those variables, we

Owen Marcus: 00:07:18

get deep, sustained, sustainable.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:22

change, which actually can happen fairly quickly and sometimes easily.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:27

And one of the other components that I work with, which is often a key

Owen Marcus: 00:07:32

component for guys is a communal component, which is we're hardwired

Owen Marcus: 00:07:37

to be animals that are in a tribe or a herd or a pack or pod or whatever.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:44

We're social animals.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:45

And we mentioned something about polyvagal theory, which is the vagus nerve is just

Owen Marcus: 00:07:53

the longest, biggest nerve in the body.

Owen Marcus: 00:07:55

And the new science says that 80 percent of that nerve goes, it's afferent, it

Owen Marcus: 00:08:00

goes this way, up to the brain, 20% It's efferent, it goes from the brain down.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:05

So really, it's our gut brain, as now some people are calling it, that really

Owen Marcus: 00:08:10

drives our brain in terms of survival and the reasons that we, not so much

Owen Marcus: 00:08:17

the reasons, but you know, not the cognitive reasons, but really the driving

Owen Marcus: 00:08:20

reasons why we do or not do what we do.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:23

And so, When we understand that and we start working with this phenomena, the

Owen Marcus: 00:08:28

body, we start to take something that's been sabotaging us and we turn it around

Owen Marcus: 00:08:35

and it becomes the key to our success.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:38

And then the other part of that is that I tell guys, look, you're, you're seceded.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:45

You survived.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:47

Great.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:48

'cause these coping mechanisms, survival skills is what we had

Owen Marcus: 00:08:51

to do to survive a childhood.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:53

And it worked.

Owen Marcus: 00:08:55

The problem is we hit a threshold where it stopped working

Owen Marcus: 00:08:58

and then it does sabotages.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:01

So a lot of the guys I work with are, you know, successful entrepreneurs.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:05

Part of their coping strategies were some of the keys to their

Owen Marcus: 00:09:08

success of being an entrepreneur.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:10

But often those strategies are not allowing 'em to be successful at home.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:17

And so we go, I'm not going to take away any of the upsides of what you learned.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:22

You're going to keep those.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:22

That's going to be easy.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:23

You don't have to do anything.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:25

It'll happen naturally, but let's work with the downsides, which is,

Owen Marcus: 00:09:30

you know, let's teach you some skills that you didn't get to learn because

Owen Marcus: 00:09:35

of what was happening or didn't happen for you in your childhood.

Owen Marcus: 00:09:39

And once you have these skills, because they're intrinsic or natural, you'll,

Owen Marcus: 00:09:44

you'll keep them for the rest of your life and your life will turn around.

Mike Forrester: 00:09:48

So when you talk about teaching some skills, what are

Mike Forrester: 00:09:52

some skills that are going to Help like elevate how I show up, how, you

Mike Forrester: 00:09:58

know, my awareness is and, and how my relationships are, because if what

Mike Forrester: 00:10:04

you're saying is what got you here won't get you there, you know, what kind of,

Mike Forrester: 00:10:09

what kind of skills do I need to learn?

Mike Forrester: 00:10:12

And are there things that I need to unlearn?

Owen Marcus: 00:10:15

Yeah, um, in the process of learning these skills,

Owen Marcus: 00:10:19

you're unlearning some things.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:20

And it's, another metaphor is that, you know, we might be right hand dominant.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:24

We've done everything with our right hand.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:26

And we go, I got, you know, I got this left hand here, but I'm not using it.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:31

And it's atrophying, it's weak, and it's not coordinated.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:34

I go, yeah, that's these other parts.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:36

We're going to strengthen that.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:37

And for a while, you know, we're going to have you start doing things

Owen Marcus: 00:10:40

with your left hand where you want to do them with the right hand.

Owen Marcus: 00:10:43

But at some point, You'll be balanced in terms of strength and dexterity, so

Owen Marcus: 00:10:48

you can use these skills when you need to, and you can use the other skills

Owen Marcus: 00:10:52

when you need to, and the biggest skill in the left hand is the ability

Owen Marcus: 00:10:56

to down regulate, which is to say to relax, so that you can, you can leave

Owen Marcus: 00:11:02

the stress state, the survival state.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:05

And use this other part of your nervous system, your

Owen Marcus: 00:11:08

endocrine system, in your body.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:11

Slow down, connect to yourself, connect to your body, connect to your feelings.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:16

And from there, connecting to someone else becomes easy and natural.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:21

And part of the, we realize with polyvagal theory and the guy that sort

Owen Marcus: 00:11:27

of discovered all this, is that We're all hardwired to read each other.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:31

We don't know this, but this happens unconsciously.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:34

So even on a Zoom call or, you know, a virtual call like this, I'm looking

Owen Marcus: 00:11:40

at you, I see your face, your face and all the little muscles, your eyes,

Owen Marcus: 00:11:45

your voice tone, your vocosity, how your voice just sort of varies, all

Owen Marcus: 00:11:51

that is telling me that you're safe.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:54

And it's not like you're going to come out of the screen and choke me.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:57

It's that you're emotionally safe.

Owen Marcus: 00:11:59

And because you're in, you're laughing and I feel safe.

Owen Marcus: 00:12:04

So I downregulate and you're seeing that and hearing that from me.

Owen Marcus: 00:12:07

So we got this cycle of what they call co regulation.

Owen Marcus: 00:12:12

And so in our relationships, like the primary partners or kids, when we

Owen Marcus: 00:12:18

can come into that relationship, sit down with our partner from a place of

Owen Marcus: 00:12:23

relaxation, he or she will start to.

Owen Marcus: 00:12:26

Down regularly and we all know this, we come into a situation and we're

Owen Marcus: 00:12:31

stressed, people are going to respond differently because unconsciously and

Owen Marcus: 00:12:36

viscerally, they're going to respond as if you're a threat and you're going

Owen Marcus: 00:12:41

to hear and feel their response and you're going to feel them as a threat.

Owen Marcus: 00:12:45

So we upregulate this and then we, we get this or we just walk away or

Owen Marcus: 00:12:50

whatever, but we're not connecting.

Owen Marcus: 00:12:52

And so one way to deal with all the things we're talking about is when we

Owen Marcus: 00:12:56

can get this real connection between.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:00

As humans, we relax even more.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:03

And that's one of the ways that we, we start to unlearn the, some of these

Owen Marcus: 00:13:09

behaviors is to have these safe places to, to just be ourselves, which is what

Owen Marcus: 00:13:13

happens in our trainings and groups where guys can just screw up because, you know,

Owen Marcus: 00:13:18

like I say, you're not living with these guys, you're not working with these guys.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:22

So it's okay.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:23

If you don't do it, right.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:25

Because as guys.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:28

We're oriented around performance and we're often

Owen Marcus: 00:13:33

appreciated or evaluated by how well we've performed across the board.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:38

And so when we take that off the table and we can just be with a group of guys and

Owen Marcus: 00:13:43

you'd be learning something and you, you know, you're talking to the guy and you're

Owen Marcus: 00:13:46

going into your story and, you know, we don't go into stories cause that's

Owen Marcus: 00:13:49

inter ed, you know, you realize you're someone, you know, I might say, Mike,

Owen Marcus: 00:13:54

you know, You're telling me your story.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:56

It's an interesting story, but I want to feel you.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:58

I don't feel you.

Owen Marcus: 00:13:59

Oh yeah, I'm doing that again.

Owen Marcus: 00:14:01

Oh, thanks.

Owen Marcus: 00:14:02

Uh, and so guys, you know, it's like, yeah, we get to screw

Owen Marcus: 00:14:05

up and there's no consequence.

Owen Marcus: 00:14:06

So, so that's how we learn to use our left hand.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:11

Yeah, that makes sense.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:12

It's almost like, uh, we skipped leg day and only did upper body the whole time.

Owen Marcus: 00:14:17

Exactly.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:17

At some point you can't get out of a chair.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:20

Um, do you see almost like how at times if.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:25

We're not hydrating.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:28

We become numb or, you know, don't receive the signals to, Hey, I'm thirsty.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:34

Does that same kind of thing happen with stress where we just become

Mike Forrester: 00:14:38

acclimated to a certain level of stress?

Mike Forrester: 00:14:41

And it's not until things have gone like DEFCON five that it's like, Oh,

Mike Forrester: 00:14:45

Hey, I'm stressed, but not realizing day to day, minute to minute.

Mike Forrester: 00:14:49

I'm stressed because of the things going on is, is that a thing that you see?

Owen Marcus: 00:14:55

Exactly.

Owen Marcus: 00:14:55

Exactly.

Owen Marcus: 00:14:56

I mean, and I was a poster child in that the tensor we get, the more

Owen Marcus: 00:15:01

we disassociate disconnect from our body or emotions and our awareness.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:06

So it's a vicious cycle.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:07

We get tenser, we become less aware.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:09

And often the only thing that has us be aware is someone else's reaction.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:15

And, and then as we get less aware, we skew everything

Owen Marcus: 00:15:20

around our own perspective.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:22

It's everyone else or this or that we have excuses and we're, you

Owen Marcus: 00:15:25

know, I'm the victim and all that.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:27

But as we become aware, it could be a bit of a shock that wake up call.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:31

Like, well, this is what happened to me.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:33

I go, I'm the consistent variable here.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:38

So maybe there's something here with me.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:40

Um, and so that, It's what really got me into all this was going, okay, maybe I

Owen Marcus: 00:15:46

need to change myself and, and one of my resistances is to, to join a men's group.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:53

And I go, well, maybe there's something there if I'm resisting it.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:55

So I'll start a men's group.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:57

And that's what I did in 1995.

Owen Marcus: 00:15:59

Um, yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:16:01

We're just unaware and one of the great things about these groups of trainings

Owen Marcus: 00:16:05

is that when you feel safe and guys just in natural interaction allow

Owen Marcus: 00:16:11

you to be aware or what also happens is you can often see it in someone

Owen Marcus: 00:16:16

else and you go, I do the same thing.

Owen Marcus: 00:16:20

Well, I see it in Mike here and wow, people have told me I do that, but

Owen Marcus: 00:16:25

now, you know, because it's relaxed, we're joking, it's safe here.

Owen Marcus: 00:16:30

Yeah, I do that too.

Owen Marcus: 00:16:32

Wow.

Owen Marcus: 00:16:32

All right.

Owen Marcus: 00:16:32

I'm now really interested to see how Mike changes it.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:37

Yeah.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:37

I've never had that happen before.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:38

Oh, it's like somebody says, Hey, you're kind of on edge.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:42

Watch your tone.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:43

Your, your face is communicating something else.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:46

I've never happened to had that happen.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:48

It's only I've read it in books.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:51

I wish that were the case.

Mike Forrester: 00:16:53

My wife will tell me, you know, your tone is communicating something different

Mike Forrester: 00:16:57

than, uh, I think what you're intending and it's working to, you know, like you

Mike Forrester: 00:17:03

talked about that stool, it's working to make sure all the legs of that stool

Mike Forrester: 00:17:07

and what I'm hoping to communicate are on the same, uh, Same part of the floor.

Owen Marcus: 00:17:12

Yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:17:12

And you know, we, we're not, and see, a lot of it is, we're not trained

Owen Marcus: 00:17:17

to use those legs of the stool.

Owen Marcus: 00:17:19

We're just standing on the stool and you think it's all, you know,

Owen Marcus: 00:17:22

if I perform well, I'm smart and I can make people laugh or whatever.

Owen Marcus: 00:17:27

Everything's going to be fine.

Owen Marcus: 00:17:29

And, you know, the, the, the stool legs are just rotting away.

Mike Forrester: 00:17:35

Yeah, it can be challenging to realize where you're

Mike Forrester: 00:17:38

actually at when you take that, like, honest assessment of how am I showing

Mike Forrester: 00:17:44

up and what's going on around me.

Mike Forrester: 00:17:46

It can be a rude awakening.

Mike Forrester: 00:17:48

Um, you talked about growing.

Mike Forrester: 00:17:50

An inch when you started realizing how stressed you were and then, you know,

Mike Forrester: 00:17:56

decreasing that level of stress, how did you become aware of, Hey, I am stressed

Mike Forrester: 00:18:03

and then begin releasing that stress so that, you know, you were able to

Mike Forrester: 00:18:08

be taller and, and stand differently.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:11

So the first thing I did, which I resisted, because

Owen Marcus: 00:18:14

I've gotten better, but I still resisted things in the beginning,

Owen Marcus: 00:18:17

but that's a guy thing, I think.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:19

So, this is, uh, after college I was traveling in and out of the country,

Owen Marcus: 00:18:23

ended up in Boulder, Colorado, in like the, in 75, 76, probably 76, and

Owen Marcus: 00:18:30

I was living with a group of guys.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:32

And one of them was an attorney from Florida, and he moved to

Owen Marcus: 00:18:37

Boulder to study to be a rolfer.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:39

And rolfing is a kind of physical therapy developed by Dr.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:43

Rolfe many years ago.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:45

Works with the soft tissue of the body, particularly the fascia, which

Owen Marcus: 00:18:49

is what holds everything together.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:50

It's connective tissue.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:51

It's the, when you pull the skin of the chicken, it's the sheath.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:55

It becomes scar tissue.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:57

It's a gristle and stake.

Owen Marcus: 00:18:58

But it's also the organ of stress.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:02

And so when we put a stress on our body, that's where it goes, uh, uh,

Owen Marcus: 00:19:06

in the most sustainable or significant way it goes into the factual system.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:12

So Breck was his name.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:14

He was a great litigator.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:15

So he argued his case really well.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:16

That's all right.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:17

All right.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:17

After a couple of weeks.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:18

Oh, you promised to shut up if I just try it.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:21

Yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:22

Yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:22

Yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:22

So I tried a session and I was sold.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:25

So I went through 10 sessions once a week.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:28

Nine months later, I was this short of an inch taller and I lost 20 pounds and I

Owen Marcus: 00:19:33

wasn't fat, but that those 20 pounds was tension from particularly my waist down.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:40

I didn't walk, I waddled.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:41

I remember in high school, my friends used to tease me because I waddled.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:45

They could see me blocks away by my walk because I was so tight.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:48

I did huge legs.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:50

And all, not all, but a lot of that tension just dissolved away over

Owen Marcus: 00:19:54

a course of at least nine months.

Owen Marcus: 00:19:57

And, you know, it literally allowed me to stretch back out.

Owen Marcus: 00:20:02

So one of the ways I explained it is that stress and trauma and maybe

Owen Marcus: 00:20:08

injuries, poor posture, whatever it is, it's like we're in this space suit or

Owen Marcus: 00:20:14

jumpsuit and it's leather and it shrinks.

Owen Marcus: 00:20:17

So, literally, our skeleton just doesn't have enough room, but it gets

Owen Marcus: 00:20:21

like shoe leather, it gets tough, and, and so, be it from emotional stress or

Owen Marcus: 00:20:26

physical stress, we become restrained.

Owen Marcus: 00:20:29

And so, in the course of going through these sessions, my

Owen Marcus: 00:20:32

body over time just released.

Owen Marcus: 00:20:34

So that was my first somatic experience, and then from there, While I was

Owen Marcus: 00:20:38

in Boulder, I studied with these psychotherapists that were the beginners

Owen Marcus: 00:20:42

of developing, which is now the state of the art of psychotherapy, that's somatic

Owen Marcus: 00:20:47

psychotherapy, which is essentially using the body to connect to or help

Owen Marcus: 00:20:54

someone connect to their emotions.

Owen Marcus: 00:20:56

And so what I realized decades ago when I worked with men, and I would have been

Owen Marcus: 00:21:01

one of them, if you ask, Them or me.

Owen Marcus: 00:21:03

What do you feel?

Owen Marcus: 00:21:04

Emotionally?

Owen Marcus: 00:21:05

It's like, uh, how do I get out of this room?

Owen Marcus: 00:21:10

But if I asked you, you know, do you have stress in life?

Owen Marcus: 00:21:14

And every guy goes, yeah, I got stressed.

Owen Marcus: 00:21:17

Let me tell you about my stress.

Owen Marcus: 00:21:18

And, you know, they are, we all like to brag about our stress

Owen Marcus: 00:21:20

and where's it in your body.

Owen Marcus: 00:21:22

Well, yeah, my neck bothers me, you know, so we have this whole

Owen Marcus: 00:21:26

conversation about stress and then it's sort of just naturally involves

Owen Marcus: 00:21:31

evolves into emotions or relationships.

Owen Marcus: 00:21:35

Well, if we start with relationships and emotions, guys just shut up.

Owen Marcus: 00:21:39

At some level, we realize that, you know, Our body, or our stress

Owen Marcus: 00:21:45

level, is being impacted more than the physical by the emotional.

Owen Marcus: 00:21:50

And when we can work with the physical, and that's what we do in Mel, this

Owen Marcus: 00:21:55

company I help co create, we can change the body, and by changing the

Owen Marcus: 00:22:01

body, we innately change the emotions.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:04

Because, well, I think we all know, and what science shows, is, you know, if I do

Owen Marcus: 00:22:09

something, The first thing you're going to experience is going to be somatic.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:13

Your body's going to respond in an instant, in a millisecond, and

Owen Marcus: 00:22:17

you're not going to be aware of it.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:19

You can train yourself to be aware.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:21

That's called interception.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:23

And then your emotion or your unconscious mind will be aware, but eventually

Owen Marcus: 00:22:28

your conscious mind will be aware.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:30

It's sort of like if you touch something really hot, you're moving your hand.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:34

Away before you ever knew it.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:36

And it's the same thing on, on, on, on this level.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:39

It's just a little more subtle.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:41

So we don't realize it.

Owen Marcus: 00:22:43

And so when we can slow the whole process down and get the guy to not respond in

Owen Marcus: 00:22:49

a stressful way, but in a more relaxed way, the outcomes entirely different.

Mike Forrester: 00:22:55

Man, so it's one of our bodies communicating, even if

Mike Forrester: 00:22:59

we're not communicating or intending to communicate, uh, I think a lot of us want

Mike Forrester: 00:23:06

to believe, Hey, I'm in control of it all.

Mike Forrester: 00:23:09

And, uh, that's a fallacy.

Owen Marcus: 00:23:11

We wish we were, but we're not.

Mike Forrester: 00:23:14

Well, As I'm sitting there, whether it's trauma from childhood

Mike Forrester: 00:23:19

or, you know, stress at work, as far as like the rolfing and the somatic,

Mike Forrester: 00:23:27

um, practices you've talked about.

Mike Forrester: 00:23:29

If I want to dip my toe in Owen and say like, okay, I know I have stress.

Mike Forrester: 00:23:34

I just don't know how it's impacted my body or my thoughts or my emotions.

Mike Forrester: 00:23:41

Where can I start out?

Mike Forrester: 00:23:43

What's a good first step?

Mike Forrester: 00:23:45

, Owen Marcus: There's so many different avenues to pursue.

Mike Forrester: 00:23:48

I mean, yoga has gotten real popular, uh, and there's different kinds of

Mike Forrester: 00:23:53

yoga and people teach it differently.

Mike Forrester: 00:23:55

And it could be more an exercise yoga, it could be a more

Mike Forrester: 00:23:58

restful or rejuvenating yoga.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:00

It could be more mindful.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:02

Uh, yes.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:04

More women are doing, are still doing it than men, but more and

Mike Forrester: 00:24:07

more men are getting into it.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:09

So that's an easy way.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:11

Every community has several yoga studios.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:14

Body work, it could be from massage to rolfing to, you say, acupuncture.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:20

I mean a lot of different kinds of body therapies that will help you get there.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:24

There's somatic psychotherapies.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:28

Probably the most popular one is what's called somatic experiencing.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:32

It was started by my friend, uh, Peter Levine.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:35

He's written several books on it.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:36

Um, he was originally a Rolfer and Dr.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:40

Rolf said, Hey Peter, you're just too small to be a Rolfer.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:42

So he went and got a couple, a couple of PhDs from Berkeley.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:45

And that was the beginning of him figuring all this out.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:48

Um, so he, you know, he's been a genius at figuring this out.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:51

And so there's now, It's like his therapy is the hottest therapy to learn out there.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:56

And I, you know, I learned it years ago.

Mike Forrester: 00:24:58

My, one of my partners, uh, studied it and done his professional training.

Mike Forrester: 00:25:03

And so, yeah, we work with the physiology of the body, uh, in our work.

Mike Forrester: 00:25:08

Um, it's, it's more affable to men in psychotherapy, but it has

Mike Forrester: 00:25:13

some similar roots, what else?

Mike Forrester: 00:25:15

Um.

Mike Forrester: 00:25:17

You know, mindfulness, particularly somatic based mindfulness practice,

Mike Forrester: 00:25:21

mindfulness has gotten really popular, uh, and it's really being aware

Mike Forrester: 00:25:26

of what's happening in the moment.

Mike Forrester: 00:25:27

In general, mindfulness is being aware of your thoughts, which is good, but

Mike Forrester: 00:25:33

I like somatic mindfulness because it's often easier and more effective

Mike Forrester: 00:25:36

because by being aware of our bodies, we tend to slow down quicker, and

Mike Forrester: 00:25:41

we can always be aware of our body.

Mike Forrester: 00:25:43

bodies and just being aware of our bodies tells our bodies that

Mike Forrester: 00:25:48

we're safe and when we feel safe we just naturally down regulate.

Mike Forrester: 00:25:52

Being out in nature, something as simple as being out in nature, um,

Mike Forrester: 00:25:57

can help us down regulate and connect, literally connecting to nature.

Mike Forrester: 00:26:02

I think every person would probably say that they feel more relaxed, uh,

Mike Forrester: 00:26:06

and As we were saying before we got on, another way is what I call the

Mike Forrester: 00:26:13

communal, uh, phenomena, which is the ability for us to be in emotionally

Mike Forrester: 00:26:18

safe spaces and connect to people.

Mike Forrester: 00:26:22

And we are hardwired for connection and when we can connect.

Mike Forrester: 00:26:26

You know, feel safe, and that's the foundation, and we connect, uh,

Mike Forrester: 00:26:30

we'll start to downregulate, and we start to learn how to connect.

Mike Forrester: 00:26:34

And this is what attachment theory, which is all the science behind connection,

Mike Forrester: 00:26:40

has been telling us for over 50 years.

Mike Forrester: 00:26:44

And my partner's a couples therapist, so we teach couples trainings, and

Mike Forrester: 00:26:49

we're doing a couples retreat down in Costa Rica, and it's based on these two

Mike Forrester: 00:26:53

things, the physiology and attachment theory, but you know, applying this

Mike Forrester: 00:26:57

where, you know, so your partner is an anchor for connection and down regulating

Mike Forrester: 00:27:03

rather than a stimuli for a stress reaction as it so often is for people.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:09

So learning that too, learning how to use your relationships as a vehicle for

Mike Forrester: 00:27:16

relaxation and connection is critical.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:18

So Those are, you know, the major ways I would say, you know, how to get started.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:25

And I would say, yeah, just try some

Mike Forrester: 00:27:30

start somewhere and don't lone wolf.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:32

It is what I'm here.

Owen Marcus: 00:27:32

Exactly.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:33

Uh, you know, you're, you're in community, you're in

Mike Forrester: 00:27:36

relationship, tap into those and, and find some people to, uh, like you said, be the

Mike Forrester: 00:27:43

anchor, not to be like the fuel to the fire of the stress you're already feeling.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:48

So.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:49

A lot of the guys that, you know, are in coaching myself when I

Mike Forrester: 00:27:54

was coming home from corporate.

Mike Forrester: 00:27:57

Man, Owen, pull into that driveway.

Mike Forrester: 00:28:00

That is probably one, that was probably one of the biggest stressors

Mike Forrester: 00:28:05

was I've already put in a day.

Mike Forrester: 00:28:08

I've shown up the, the negative, you know, thoughts and that

Mike Forrester: 00:28:13

inadequacy, the lack of worth.

Mike Forrester: 00:28:16

I've already been fighting that all day.

Mike Forrester: 00:28:18

So a lot of that energy is tapped out and gone.

Mike Forrester: 00:28:21

I come home, I want to show up well.

Owen Marcus: 00:28:24

Mhm.

Mike Forrester: 00:28:26

what is like something that you, you know,

Mike Forrester: 00:28:29

when you're, you're working with guys, Hey, how do I down regulate?

Mike Forrester: 00:28:32

How do I release some of that stress so that I'm able to show up in a better

Mike Forrester: 00:28:38

state than how I feel like I'm showing up?

Owen Marcus: 00:28:42

Yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:28:43

Uh, that is so common.

Owen Marcus: 00:28:45

And so guys will start working with me.

Owen Marcus: 00:28:47

They start to, you know, they start to get the skills, they see the advantage,

Owen Marcus: 00:28:51

but you know, they come home and they don't want to bring work into the house.

Owen Marcus: 00:28:58

It could be really simple, and I've had a lot of guys do this, even, you know, when

Owen Marcus: 00:29:02

they work at home, like, they're upstairs in their office, and I'd have them do

Owen Marcus: 00:29:05

it before they come downstairs, because

Owen Marcus: 00:29:10

part of it is just, again, the physiology, we got to change our state.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:15

And so, We're in a stress state, which in some ways might not be a bad thing.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:21

We, you know, we were working hard.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:23

We might like doing it, but we're jacked up and we walk and we want to be relaxed.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:29

So these people, you know, we might be jacked up, we might feel really

Owen Marcus: 00:29:32

excited and there's some stress there and partner or kids feel that, you

Owen Marcus: 00:29:37

know, they're reading your nonverbals and I don't want to connect to dad.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:41

I'm going to go do something else.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:42

Or your wife says, yeah, you know, go do this.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:45

Go do that.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:45

You know, it's like, stay away from me or whatever.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:48

Versus you come in, you're relaxed, you're present.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:53

Uh, you're in your body.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:56

You're, you're looking forward to connecting to your family.

Owen Marcus: 00:29:59

And, and they sense that now it might not be immediate.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:02

It might take a few days or a few weeks to shift years of that,

Owen Marcus: 00:30:06

but inevitably that changes.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:08

And, and so often the secret to doing that is.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:13

You got to do a pattern interrupt.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:15

And so you got this pattern of tension, tension at work, and maybe the, the

Owen Marcus: 00:30:21

train ride home, the drive home, or the walking down the stairs home or whatever.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:26

That's all sort of condition.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:27

So stay where you're at.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:29

Uh, you know, I had one guy that ran a large large architectural

Owen Marcus: 00:30:32

firm and, and that was his problem.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:35

So what I had him do is, uh, there was a park on the way home.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:40

So he would.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:41

He was in California, so it was usually nice.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:43

So he could stop at the park and I said, look, you don't have to do the

Owen Marcus: 00:30:47

mindfulness practice, which it was doing.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:49

I said, just get out of your car, walk around this little trail for five minutes.

Owen Marcus: 00:30:56

Look at the trees, hear the sound, smell the, uh, The air, you know, get connected

Owen Marcus: 00:31:02

to nature, just loosen up your body, you know, nothing, all that complicated,

Owen Marcus: 00:31:08

take some easy breaths, get back into the car, you know, and leave everything

Owen Marcus: 00:31:13

behind and just walk in a house.

Owen Marcus: 00:31:16

And he saw that it was an immediate difference.

Owen Marcus: 00:31:21

And so sometimes it could be that simple

Mike Forrester: 00:31:23

and that there is such power in something so simple

Mike Forrester: 00:31:28

and it's like, just because it's easy and seem simple, we dismiss it and

Mike Forrester: 00:31:34

miss the reward that's available to us instead of like, Owen I feel like

Mike Forrester: 00:31:39

I've got to do something monumental.

Mike Forrester: 00:31:41

Herculean almost.

Mike Forrester: 00:31:42

It's like it doesn't have to be like that.

Mike Forrester: 00:31:45

It's obtainable.

Mike Forrester: 00:31:47

It just requires us to be intentional, take that action.

Mike Forrester: 00:31:51

And.

Mike Forrester: 00:31:52

You know, to to change our state, like you talked about that pattern

Mike Forrester: 00:31:56

interrupt, it's stepping out.

Mike Forrester: 00:31:58

And instead of being frustrated with the traffic coming home

Mike Forrester: 00:32:01

going, Hey, this is really nice.

Mike Forrester: 00:32:04

I feel like I can breathe being in nature.

Mike Forrester: 00:32:07

Like you talked about to down regulate.

Mike Forrester: 00:32:08

I mean, there's so much there to.

Mike Forrester: 00:32:11

To tap into

Owen Marcus: 00:32:12

and I think maybe what I call the under for that was sort of behind all

Owen Marcus: 00:32:16

that is Believing that we're worth it.

Owen Marcus: 00:32:20

I'm worth getting home five minutes later so I can come home present or

Owen Marcus: 00:32:25

maybe you know Rather than listen to the news or some rock music or whatever

Owen Marcus: 00:32:30

that gets y'all pumped up You you listen to a book as you're driving away.

Owen Marcus: 00:32:34

Yeah, it's like you go.

Owen Marcus: 00:32:35

What what can I do?

Owen Marcus: 00:32:37

That's selfish for me that relaxes me Because by investing in

Owen Marcus: 00:32:42

yourself, you're really investing in everyone that's around you.

Mike Forrester: 00:32:46

Yeah, I can, I can think my wife, you know, if I asked her back

Mike Forrester: 00:32:50

then, hey, can I stop for five minutes for myself just to calm down and be,

Mike Forrester: 00:32:55

you know, more able to be present?

Mike Forrester: 00:32:58

That would have been like one of those of looking at her like,

Mike Forrester: 00:33:01

Hey, do you mind if I breathe?

Mike Forrester: 00:33:03

Because I'm not adding fuel to the fire.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:05

Owen it's not like I'm coming in, like I'm dropping a napalm bomb and her.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:10

Her stress from the day isn't being, you know, fueled by everything

Mike Forrester: 00:33:16

I'm coming home with in that, that additional stress to create this great

Mike Forrester: 00:33:20

bonfire that doesn't add to the, uh, the safety of everybody in the house.

Owen Marcus: 00:33:26

Well, and then it starts to compound, as you know.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:28

Yes.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:29

Absolutely.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:30

So, I mean, it's almost a given, but I would have sat there at

Mike Forrester: 00:33:34

one point in my life, Owen, and I gone, I can't be five minutes late.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:37

My wife needs me as soon as possible.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:40

Just so I didn't have to take action on something that Felt so simple or almost

Mike Forrester: 00:33:50

dismissing the value of it or my, like you talked about my worth in being able

Mike Forrester: 00:33:55

to do that, like I wouldn't deserve it.

Mike Forrester: 00:33:58

So Owen, you've done a whole lot of of work to show up and bring

Mike Forrester: 00:34:04

the knowledge that you have.

Mike Forrester: 00:34:06

And part of this, you talked about Asperger's and, and dyslexia, like what?

Mike Forrester: 00:34:14

What kept you invested to continue like researching and everything to

Mike Forrester: 00:34:20

do the work on yourself because a lot of guys will look at it and go

Mike Forrester: 00:34:23

almost like new year's resolutions.

Mike Forrester: 00:34:25

Honestly.

Mike Forrester: 00:34:26

Hey, I am not seeing the results.

Mike Forrester: 00:34:28

You know, this has been 20, 30 years in the making, but in three

Mike Forrester: 00:34:31

days, things have not changed.

Mike Forrester: 00:34:34

Right?

Mike Forrester: 00:34:35

How did you continue putting in the work to stay with this long term?

Owen Marcus: 00:34:41

Well, as Telling this guy, uh, yesterday about, um,

Owen Marcus: 00:34:46

cause he was laughing about how dyslexic I was, or am, and one, I

Owen Marcus: 00:34:50

didn't have a choice, and in that,

Owen Marcus: 00:34:57

I couldn't use my conscious mind to figure things out because I just put my foot in

Owen Marcus: 00:35:02

my mouth, be it dyslexia or Asperger's.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:04

So I couldn't really develop a good coping strategy, uh, and be successful

Owen Marcus: 00:35:13

in the ways that most guys could be.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:14

So a lot of that was out of the picture.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:16

So.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:17

Yeah, I got to a point where I just gave up, which was really not a give up and

Owen Marcus: 00:35:23

doing something, but really a give up or trying to compensate, hide or whatever.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:27

Cause I just couldn't see that.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:28

I, I was smart enough to realize that.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:31

So I surrendered and, and that's actually, you know, what happened was I remember,

Owen Marcus: 00:35:38

I'll never forget, you know, walking, you know, through the streets of Boulder.

Owen Marcus: 00:35:43

One evening and full moon and sort of having one of those conversations where

Owen Marcus: 00:35:48

it wasn't really a prayer but I guess you could say it was a prayer where I was

Owen Marcus: 00:35:52

dismissible and desperate and saying I'll do anything and Just sort of forgetting

Owen Marcus: 00:35:56

that and then Breck this attorney that was studying to be a rolfer shows up

Owen Marcus: 00:36:01

He tells me about this and my first reaction is no way am I gonna do that?

Owen Marcus: 00:36:06

And then I go Maybe, maybe I should try that.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:10

And so gradually I've learned that almost inevitably when I want

Owen Marcus: 00:36:16

something, it shows up, but almost Always in a way that I didn't expect.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:21

So I'm slowly learning to try new things to take the risk.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:26

And then another part of that is being dyslexic.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:30

I always cheat.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:32

And by that, I mean, yeah, yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:35

Dyslexics, we have to survive.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:38

And often the way that we survive ends up being a better way than the way

Owen Marcus: 00:36:42

that the average person does them.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:45

Not always, but a lot of my cheating ways ended up working really well,

Owen Marcus: 00:36:50

which is a lot of what I teach.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:52

I figured things out in new ways.

Owen Marcus: 00:36:54

And then part of the Asperger's is that whole thing of, of this being

Owen Marcus: 00:37:00

a geeky or obsessive about some.

Owen Marcus: 00:37:03

So I've gotten I don't know if obsessed is the word, but really into getting

Owen Marcus: 00:37:08

healthy or healthier and succeeding Through that and really walk in my

Owen Marcus: 00:37:15

talk and showing people that, you know, at 71, I could be, you know,

Owen Marcus: 00:37:20

healthier, stronger in some ways.

Owen Marcus: 00:37:22

And my mind can work better than it was at 31.

Owen Marcus: 00:37:26

And so I've enjoyed doing that.

Owen Marcus: 00:37:28

So all that, all the things that took me out in the beginning, I've helped sort

Owen Marcus: 00:37:34

of flip around to be my, uh, superpowers.

Mike Forrester: 00:37:41

Yeah, I can see that.

Mike Forrester: 00:37:44

In what we've talked about here, Owen, as far as like our body, remembering

Mike Forrester: 00:37:48

things and our conscious mind, right?

Mike Forrester: 00:37:51

Being at the top of the stool, like you talked about, can we be?

Mike Forrester: 00:37:58

Get our body and our mind in alignment, you know, as we're working

Mike Forrester: 00:38:05

through this and and becoming aware.

Mike Forrester: 00:38:07

I mean, is there hope for that?

Owen Marcus: 00:38:10

There's a lot of hope for it and it's getting in partnership

Owen Marcus: 00:38:14

with these other parts and the mind.

Owen Marcus: 00:38:19

Sort of has to give up some of its control, which is a scary part.

Owen Marcus: 00:38:23

And going from where we're at, which we might not like, to where

Owen Marcus: 00:38:27

we want to be, there's this gap.

Owen Marcus: 00:38:29

And along that gap, like my surrender, you got to be willing to go through

Owen Marcus: 00:38:35

what I call this void period, where you're not who you were,

Owen Marcus: 00:38:39

you're not doing it the other way, But you really haven't embodied,

Owen Marcus: 00:38:42

learned, or mastered this new way.

Owen Marcus: 00:38:44

So it's a little scary, but that's what learning's about because it's

Owen Marcus: 00:38:49

ultimately in my world, it's not therapy.

Owen Marcus: 00:38:51

It's learning.

Owen Marcus: 00:38:52

Yes.

Owen Marcus: 00:38:53

As you said, it's unlearning certain things, but it's really learning other

Owen Marcus: 00:38:56

skills that really should have been taught to us when we were young, but

Owen Marcus: 00:39:00

doesn't mean we can't learn them now.

Owen Marcus: 00:39:02

And, and it's being willing to take the risk and.

Owen Marcus: 00:39:08

Anyone that I've ever seen that succeeded at anything, and particularly

Owen Marcus: 00:39:12

as a good learner, has always been willing to fail at first.

Owen Marcus: 00:39:18

I was just listening to an interview that Tim Ferriss did with Scott

Owen Marcus: 00:39:23

Glenn, the actor, and it was amazing.

Owen Marcus: 00:39:25

I've always liked the guy, but I didn't know his backstory, and the

Owen Marcus: 00:39:28

things he's done in his life, and Tim asked him at the end about his

Owen Marcus: 00:39:33

life and learning, and he said, yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:39:36

I realized that I had to be willing to look like a fool if

Owen Marcus: 00:39:42

I was going to learn anything.

Owen Marcus: 00:39:44

And he didn't say this, but I think he'd agree, and what I've seen is most of

Owen Marcus: 00:39:50

looking like a fool is a self reflection.

Owen Marcus: 00:39:55

Judging myself, I'm a fool, where, in my experience, It's

Owen Marcus: 00:40:02

a fraction of that out there.

Owen Marcus: 00:40:05

We are way more critical on ourselves.

Owen Marcus: 00:40:07

And we did a study several years ago on our men.

Owen Marcus: 00:40:10

And, and the takeaway was men at our core feel that we're not good enough.

Owen Marcus: 00:40:18

And so that's a set up to always perform harder, better, better, but.

Owen Marcus: 00:40:24

Part of what we work with is, yeah, we want you to perform better, but

Owen Marcus: 00:40:27

we also want you to just be better.

Owen Marcus: 00:40:30

And when you can just be who you are and feel comfortable in that,

Owen Marcus: 00:40:33

you are more relaxed, people relate to you more, they trust you more,

Owen Marcus: 00:40:37

and you become a better performer at whatever you want to perform at.

Owen Marcus: 00:40:40

Cause you don't work so hard.

Mike Forrester: 00:40:43

Yeah.

Mike Forrester: 00:40:43

And the funny thing is like the self criticality, it's never a measurement

Mike Forrester: 00:40:49

that I would put you to, but I will put myself to that every day.

Mike Forrester: 00:40:53

Like when I, when I was at that space, it was like, I'd give

Mike Forrester: 00:40:57

you grace, give you patience, encouragement, stick at it, Owen.

Mike Forrester: 00:41:02

And like I talked about three days, you know, Hey, I'm done.

Mike Forrester: 00:41:04

The stuff doesn't work.

Mike Forrester: 00:41:05

This is too simple, man.

Mike Forrester: 00:41:08

Learning to give ourselves the same compassion that we extend to other

Mike Forrester: 00:41:13

guys, um, that is a huge gift that I don't think we really realize

Mike Forrester: 00:41:18

the value until we practice that.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:21

Well, I think you're right on.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:22

And one of the short.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:24

Courses in that is fine.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:26

Like one of our groups or whatever, because what will happen is

Owen Marcus: 00:41:29

we'll call you on that guys.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:31

We'll do that.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:32

Go, Mike, you're being hard on yourself.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:34

What you just did was hugely courageous and powerful and the

Owen Marcus: 00:41:40

story you told us, but whatever.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:42

And, and, and so when you hear it from your peers, we start to believe it.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:47

You start to believe that Joe and Sam and Rob out there and telling me that really.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:54

That was an act of courage.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:56

And, you know, maybe, you know, maybe, yeah.

Owen Marcus: 00:41:58

And, but that's how we learn this stuff.

Owen Marcus: 00:42:01

And it's really hard to break that just within our own head.

Owen Marcus: 00:42:05

We really need others to reflect the affirmative to us.

Mike Forrester: 00:42:10

Yeah.

Mike Forrester: 00:42:10

Our, our negative self thoughts, the especially critical are so

Mike Forrester: 00:42:16

defeating and debilitating and being in community where other guys will

Mike Forrester: 00:42:19

encourage and speak the truth to you.

Mike Forrester: 00:42:21

And will.

Mike Forrester: 00:42:22

Put things in a completely different perspective and give you power

Mike Forrester: 00:42:26

that you've never tapped into well.

Mike Forrester: 00:42:29

Owen I want to say thank you for joining me, sharing everything you

Mike Forrester: 00:42:33

have to put us in a different place.

Mike Forrester: 00:42:35

As far as our stress, how we see ourselves, the tools that are available

Mike Forrester: 00:42:39

to us to bring about that hope of aligning our body with our mind and not being so

Mike Forrester: 00:42:45

disjointed and, uh, to potentially even have that second growth spurt, like you

Mike Forrester: 00:42:50

talked about once you release that stress.

Mike Forrester: 00:42:53

And so Owen, outside of this podcast, how can other guys connect with you?

Owen Marcus: 00:42:58

Um, probably the best way is through our company website

Owen Marcus: 00:43:02

and it's meld, meld.community and it's community spelled out.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:07

Um, so I'm there.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:09

You can email me at owen@meld.community.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:14

Uh, We, you know, we have, uh, you know, a 10 week online course, which is our

Owen Marcus: 00:43:20

introduction and everything's interactive.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:23

It's experiential.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:24

It's yeah, this I've been, you know, I first developed this course,

Owen Marcus: 00:43:29

his first iteration 10 years ago.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:31

And we've been improving it ever since.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:33

And the guy that teaches it, honestly, Mike does a better job than I could do.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:37

Uh, and.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:39

We did a several year study that was published a few

Owen Marcus: 00:43:41

months ago in the APA journal.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:43

And this huge study was done on this course and shown, you know,

Owen Marcus: 00:43:47

how men just doing this course, you know, it was changing their lives.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:50

Uh, and then, you know, we have a, I have a ongoing private coaching

Owen Marcus: 00:43:55

practice, but also group coaching, which is the, I love doing that.

Owen Marcus: 00:43:59

And then we do retreats and, uh, which I love doing the retreats

Owen Marcus: 00:44:03

because it's real and we can do much more live than we can virtual.

Owen Marcus: 00:44:08

So, you know, we're in, and my goal it's always been is to get

Owen Marcus: 00:44:12

clients or students or whoever to a place where you don't need us.

Owen Marcus: 00:44:17

Maybe you want us and maybe you use us, but you've learned these skills so

Owen Marcus: 00:44:21

that you're not needing the support.

Owen Marcus: 00:44:24

And I, and I have seen hundreds probably now into the well over

Owen Marcus: 00:44:28

a thousand men get to that level.

Owen Marcus: 00:44:30

And then if you need it, you know, cause we often need some, we can come

Owen Marcus: 00:44:34

back and we know where to come back to.

Owen Marcus: 00:44:35

But I believe that every guy has within them, the core skills that

Owen Marcus: 00:44:42

are just latent that they could use to, you know, succeed in life.

Mike Forrester: 00:44:46

Yeah, I love that.

Mike Forrester: 00:44:48

Well, Owen, thank you very much, my friend.

Mike Forrester: 00:44:50

I really appreciate it.

Owen Marcus: 00:44:52

Thank you, Mike, for the honor of being here.