Episode 443
Overwhelmed? How to Get Unstuck When Everything Feels Urgent with John Mollura
When everything feels urgent and nothing moves, the way through overwhelm is to stop and choose the next right action. John Mollura spent years as an operations engineer leading field testing for NASA and the US military. His work took him from Antarctica to England. His team’s job was to find out what happens when a system actually has to do its job. Now he’s the author of Let It Fly, written for capable men who’ve done hard things and suddenly can’t execute. He honestly shares that he doesn’t have it all figured out. He wrote the book from mistakes he made in his own life. While finishing it, he caught himself researching ISBN numbers instead of doing the final proofread. You probably know the feeling, doing something interesting instead of the highest value task. The list keeps growing, and you start asking yourself whether you’re just lazy.
John walks through his HITS framework for those moments. Halt, identify what’s immediately important, take intentional action, and set a specific deadline. John explains the static loop. You wait for clarity, polish what you have, and blame yourself while more work piles up. He shares General Colin Powell’s 40/70 rule for making a decision with partial information. He separates perfectionism from excellence. Excellence means doing your best with the time, money, and resources you have. He names four navigators that steer you under pressure, the drifter, the blamer, the critic, and the seeker. And he shows how to separate the data, what a camera would record, from the drama you add on top. At work, that means a client who goes quiet stops becoming a story about your whole career.
The turn comes when Mike admits that in the middle of overwhelm, the last thing he feels is confidence. John answers with a formula he built as a recovering engineer. Action plus bravery equals confidence. Bravery means acting while you’re scared, so the fear you feel is what makes bravery possible. John also talks about giving yourself grace. Driving yourself with your inner critic can work for a while, and then it leaves you exhausted. As a father of three teenagers, he knows his kids are watching how he handles pressure. This one is for the dad with kids still at home who feels buried under everything on his list. He wants his kids to learn to handle pressure by watching him do it well.
What You’ll Learn In This Episode:
- Use the HITS framework to pick the one thing that matters next when everything on your list feels urgent.
- Recognize the static loop of waiting, polishing, and self-blame that keeps you stuck while the pile grows.
- Separate the data from the drama when a client goes quiet or a plan falls apart, before the story in your head takes over.
- Spot which of the four navigators is steering you under pressure, and ask “what’s my 1%?” to take your power back.
- Build confidence by acting while you’re scared, using the 40/70 rule instead of waiting to have all the answers.
- Show your kids how to handle pressure by how you respond to yours at home.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:03:07 - Why not all action is progress
00:06:20 - How to figure out what matters when everything feels important
00:07:05 - The HITS framework for cutting through overwhelm
00:11:44 - Why you need to get your to-do list out of your head
00:13:01 - How your kids learn to handle pressure by watching you
00:14:19 - What the static loop is and how it keeps you stuck
00:21:31 - Why your inner critic burns you out
00:22:38 - The difference between perfectionism and excellence
00:26:42 - How to build confidence when you feel scared
00:29:01 - The 40/70 rule for making decisions without all the information
00:31:31 - The drifter, the blamer, the critic, and the seeker
00:38:30 - How to separate the facts from the story in your head
Whether you’re snapping at the kids over nothing or your wife feels more like a roommate than a partner, your family is living with a man you swore you’d never become. Grab the free guide at https://themantheysee.com and see what they see when you walk through the door.
Your kids are inheriting more than your money, right now they're inheriting your patterns. Grab the free audit at yourlegacyaudit.com to see what you're passing down to them.
Connect with John Mollura
Website
Book - Let It Fly
https://johnmollura.com/let-it-fly-book
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-mollura
https://www.instagram.com/john_mollura/
Connect with Mike Forrester
Podcast Website
https://LivingFearlessTodayPodcast.com
Coaching Website
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hicoachmike/
Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/@hicoachmike
https://www.facebook.com/hicoachmike
https://www.instagram.com/hicoachmike
Transcript
You know you're totally capable.
Mike Forrester:You've done hard things before.
Mike Forrester:It's nothing new.
Mike Forrester:But right now, everything feels urgent, and you can't seem to get traction on any of it.
Mike Forrester:John Melora, a former NASA test engineer and author of Let It Fly, is gonna show us how to break the overwhelm loop and to take the next right action.
Mike Forrester:So even when we don't feel confident, we can still find progress and movement in the direction we're wanting to go.
Mike Forrester:Welcome to the Living Fearless Today podcast.
Mike Forrester:I'm your host, Mike Forster.
Mike Forrester:In this episode, we're gonna get into the list that's circling in your head, that task list of things to do that just seem endless and continue to bombard us mentally, and the cost that it takes on us, which is way more than we think.
Mike Forrester:We're gonna talk how your kids learn to handle pressure by watching how you handle yours, right?
Mike Forrester:You're modeling it, they're picking it up.
Mike Forrester:And John shares why waiting to feel confident keeps you stuck and the simple formula to flip that.
Mike Forrester:So let's get into it Well, John, your book is getting ready to come out, and it's, "Let It Fly: A Practical Guide to Cut Through Overwhelm, Clarify What Matters, and Take the Next Right Action."
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:Dude, there's so many books out there, John, and sometimes trying to pick out and go, "Is this for me?" Or- Yeah … you know, where does this land?
Mike Forrester:You pick up the wrong book.
Mike Forrester:Who's, who is this book for?
Mike Forrester:Like, how does a guy know that it's like, "Yep, Let It Fly, I'm gonna pick this up"?
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:Thank- thanks for having me on again.
John Mollura:This is our second time.
John Mollura:Yes.
John Mollura:It's been, it's been two years, which blew my mind when we were talking about that before we hit record.
John Mollura:So b- it's awesome to be back here with you, Mike.
John Mollura:So this book is written for the, the person that has done hard things, right?
John Mollura:They, they, they, they, they've had challenges.
John Mollura:They've had people count on them, and now maybe all of a sudden, or maybe it's been a slow fade, but they found themself in this, standing in this gap between knowing that, "Hey, I'm able to do hard things," but then not able to execute on them.
John Mollura:So that's who this book is written for.
John Mollura:It's for people that, that know they're capable.
John Mollura:Like, uh, this isn't, like, to make them smarter, you know, more action… It, it's actually to help them get into action and take the next right action.
Mike Forrester:And I think sometimes that, that can be the biggest problem, John, is I, I know this for other men, I've done this myself, man, where it's like learn, learn, learn, learn.
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:And there doesn't come that time of taking action.
John Mollura:Right.
Mike Forrester:How do you, how do you get somebody to that point of taking not just action, but the right action?
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:And, and I always like-- I love that you added that qualifier in there, the next right action, because not, not all action equals progress, right?
John Mollura:Like, I used to work with someone, we called him The Hurricane, because he would go, like, 180 miles an hour in a circle and, like, 10 miles an hour forward.
John Mollura:So the next right action is all about cutting through that mental static we have and getting clarity on what actually needs to happen, what's immediately important.
John Mollura:And the way that I, I provide the opportunity for, for people that read the book to do that is, this isn't just a book of, you know, catchy, you know, sayings and things that, you know, rhyme and it's like, "Oh, cool.
John Mollura:That was fun.
John Mollura:And now, now I've, I have this knowledge in my head." You know, as a, as a former operations engineer leading testing out in the field, like from Antarctica to England for NASA and the US military- Our stuff was all about what actually happens when this thing actually has to do the thing.
John Mollura:Like, we needed to find those answers.
John Mollura:So that's my background.
John Mollura:So I wrote the book with that same energy.
John Mollura:So number one, the book is broken up into super short chapters.
John Mollura:And when I say super short, I mean they're like one to five pages long, 'cause how good would that feel to be like, "You know what? I just read for 20 minutes and knocked out six chapters."
John Mollura:Like, you'll feel like a genius, right?
John Mollura:So the chapters are super short, and then the, the chapters are contained into eight separate parts throughout the book.
John Mollura:And at the end of every part, there are application exercises where people have the opportunity, 'cause I'm not gonna be there making them do the homework, right?
John Mollura:They have the opportunity to, to answer questions and put what they just learned from that part and in those micro chapters and put it in terms of their life.
John Mollura:So then they can really start to see, you know, what's, what's real and what are maybe some stories that I've been laying on top of things and help them cut through that noise themselves.
Mike Forrester:What's the risk of, "Hey John, I'm gonna read the book, but I don't wanna do this, these exercises, man. It's, that's just time I don't have. I, I just really need to get the knowledge, John, and I'll be cool." Is, I mean, is that a, a valid thing to do or does that kind of miss out on the, the impact that, that it could make to your life?
John Mollura:The question I, I would ask back is, and, and this is like a question I've asked like, you know, the hundreds of people I've worked with one-on-one whenever they tell me, "I don't have time," I'm like, "Okay, you don't have time for this.
John Mollura:What's getting your time?"
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
John Mollura:You have time, so if you're not allocating time for this, what's getting your time?
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:That's, that's one of those of we're, we're paying it out, we're investing it somewhere.
John Mollura:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:Just are we aware of where it is and it is at the right place?
Mike Forrester:Dude, so the title's talking about, you know, the overwhelm.
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:And John, I, I talked to so many guys, and it's like you can… Sometimes they'll talk about the overwhelm, sometimes in just how they're describing life-
John Mollura:Mm-hmm
Mike Forrester:you can sense the overwhelm.
John Mollura:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:How do you, how do you separate the overwhelm to figure out what is the important thing?
Mike Forrester:Because it's like sometimes, dude, it all feels important- Yeah … and high priority, but you, you can't be everywhere unless you're, you know, some, some scientific way of, you know, duplicating yourself.
Mike Forrester:How do you figure out what's the right thing to do when you're in that place of overwhelm?
John Mollura:The, the… And, and this is something that's super simple to recall whenever, whenever you feel the pressure start rising because, again, going back to having an operational background, like when, when things got tense, when the pressure got on, like you don't wanna be thumbing through some book and trying to remember some-something complicated.
John Mollura:So that's why I developed my HITS framework, H-I-T-S.
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
John Mollura:And what that stands for is a framework to help you sort out what is the next thing to do that's immediately important.
John Mollura:'Cause you're right, when we're getting information thrown at us from all different directions, it's hard to tell what is important.
John Mollura:So a lot of times, and I know from my life, which by the way, this book is written from the point of view of these are the rocks I've tripped over in my life.
John Mollura:It's not like I've always had this figured out.
John Mollura:Like the, this book is written from like the, the scars and wounds that, that I've gotten and things I've learned, had people pour into me.
John Mollura:So I just always like to set that.
John Mollura:It's like I don't have it all figured out.
John Mollura:I'd actually had to read parts of this book while I was writing the book and, you know, give myself the skills to keep going, which I talk about in the conclusion.
John Mollura:But back to the HITS framework, how to separate out what's, what's the next right step.
John Mollura:Because like you said, yeah, it, it, it can be like ov- just, just, uh, information overload, and it's like, "I don't know what to do. I'm just gonna… I'm, I'll, I'll do that." Right?
John Mollura:And there's all different thoughts.
John Mollura:There's, you know, the whole eat the frog thing, like do the thing you don't wanna do, or do something easy to get some wins.
John Mollura:And I'm always like, "Look, what you actually need to do is figure out what's immediately important." So the H in the HITS framework, right off the bat, the H is halt
John Mollura:Don't do anything, which might sound counterintuitive if you got a ton of crap to do, right?
John Mollura:But would you agree that sometimes we just need to think things through a little bit more instead of reacting and, and doing either the, the hard thing, swallowing the frog, or doing the easy thing?
John Mollura:So the halt gives us an interrupt to have us just be like, "All right, I, I am way overwhelmed. Let me figure out what to do next." And then the I in the HITS framework is identify what's immediately important, because we've given ourselves some space.
John Mollura:That space might be a walk around the block.
John Mollura:That space might be like even just a couple deep breaths would be a massive upgrade for a lot of people, right?
John Mollura:And identifying what's immediately important, just when you give yourself some space, it might appear like it, it might be like, "Oh, that's what I need to do.
John Mollura:My son has football practice at 4:30.
John Mollura:I need to do that.
John Mollura:I don't need to reply to this email because this person's overseas and they're not gonna get it for another 12 hours."
John Mollura:Like those are the kind of things where just pausing for a beat might really help.
John Mollura:So we've halt, identified it's immediately important, and then the T in the HITS framework is take intentional action Like, don't just be like, "Oh, okay, yeah, I'll do that later.
John Mollura:I'll figure that out." It's like, "No, let me, let me actually put some things down," like, "All right, I need to call Mike.
John Mollura:I need to tag up with him about this.
John Mollura:We need to set the meeting date." Be intentional about it.
John Mollura:And then the S in the HITS framework is set a specific deadline, because later is not a deadline, someday is not a deadline.
John Mollura:And the more specific we can be about when we need to get this done, the more it can kind of just put a framework out on things.
John Mollura:So I always tell people, it's like, look, if you need to write it down, type it up, identify what's immediately important.
John Mollura:Then there are things that, that are not important, and then there are things we can put away, what I call, like, a holding pattern.
Mike Forrester:Mm.
John Mollura:Like, these are things we don't wanna lose track of because nothing lives in your head rent-free, so we wanna make sure they're not getting, you know, some valuable space in our heads.
John Mollura:Like, if they're not immediately important, they're not even, like, going to be the next thing that's important, put them in a holding pattern, and then come back to it.
Mike Forrester:And you talked about stuff living rent-free in our head-
John Mollura:Yeah
John Mollura:… Mike Forrester: right?
John Mollura:And part of that overwhelm, John, is I, I know for myself, I can have all these tasks, these projects, things, you know, that I know need to be done.
John Mollura:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:And if they just kind of keep floating, it's almost like a planet, you know?
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:It just circles and circles and circles.
Mike Forrester:Is that something that if we're not, like, taking the habit of writing it down, that it can amplify that overwhelm?
Mike Forrester:Or is that, like, um, just something that's for certain people?
Mike Forrester:Or is that kind of a, a rule of thumb that you're like, "Get it out of your head, see it all, prioritize, and take action"?
Mike Forrester:I mean, where does that fall?
John Mollura:So th- that… You know, everybody has their own capability for the amount of plates they can keep spinning in their head, but at some point-
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm
Mike Forrester:… John Mollura: you know, just like your computer, it's gonna be like, "Hey, too many tabs open."
Mike Forrester:So I always say, like, why even let it get to that point?
Mike Forrester:Why let it get to the point where you're just so frazzled?
Mike Forrester:Because what's probably going to happen is you're probably gonna drop some balls, right?
Mike Forrester:So why even let it get to that point?
Mike Forrester:Like, just, just, just write it down.
Mike Forrester:Just get it, get it out of your, your head.
Mike Forrester:And make sure you have a system.
Mike Forrester:And again, this is for my overthinkers out there, don't y- don't go find the perfect journal or whatever.
Mike Forrester:Like, have a consistent place to write it down or type it up in your phone, that way you know where it is.
Mike Forrester:So I always say, like, let's, let's prevent the problem beforehand instead of figuring out what to do with it when we start dropping balls all over the place, 'cause that's no fun to, uh, you know, leave your kids sitting out the rain, in the rain, you know, after practice.
Mike Forrester:Yeah, kind of one of those of pouring gasoline on the tension all around you.
Mike Forrester:Right.
Mike Forrester:It's like, well, let's, let's not go here- Yeah … 'cause that just emotionally charges things, not just for yourself already feeling it, but can for your family as well and those around you.
Mike Forrester:So yeah- Mm-hmm … totally agree on that.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:And also, and also we wanna, we wanna model what it's like.
John Mollura:You know, I'm the father of three, three teenagers.
John Mollura:Like, you wanna model what it's like, because pressure's never gonna go away.
John Mollura:Like, if anything, as our kids get older, like the pressure's just gonna mount on them, you know, responsibilities increase.
John Mollura:So we wanna make sure we take that, take advantage of the time we have with them of, of modeling like, hey, look, life is not about having it be just carefree and like, yay, there's no problems whatsoever.
John Mollura:It's like, no, this is, this is how you respond whenever the pressure gets on.
John Mollura:So, so it's an opportunity- Yeah
John Mollura:for us to really model for the next generation, too.
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:It's, it's one of those that, uh, we're either gonna do it well or poorly and, uh, man, if we do it poorly, that just amplifies later as they get a busier life and-
John Mollura:Mm-hmm
John Mollura:… Mike Forrester: get older and, you know, it's, it, it just, uh, continues a spiral.
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:So in the book, Jon, you had talked about, like, the static- Mm-hmm
Mike Forrester:uh, cycle, right?
Mike Forrester:The set- static loop- Yeah … sorry.
John Mollura:Yeah, you got it.
Mike Forrester:What is, what is all entailed in that?
Mike Forrester:Like, how do we, how do we know when we're on almost like that, that loop, that merry-go-round, and then how do we get off?
John Mollura:Right.
John Mollura:Yeah, so I'm, I'm sure anyone who just heard you say that is like, "Oh, no, I know what that feels like."
John Mollura:Like, you can probably feel it in your chest, but, but the static loop that, that, you know, I talk about in the book is like number o- like you just said, like everything feels important.
John Mollura:That's usually, like, step one.
John Mollura:And we, we maybe just try to sort it out in our head and just like, "Okay, I'm gonna do that.
John Mollura:Well, maybe it's not clear, so I'm just gonna wait for, for things to be more clear," right?
John Mollura:Meanwhile, more, more things are getting piled on, right?
John Mollura:'Cause… And maybe it feels safer to wait depending what it is, right?
John Mollura:So then we can kick, then we can kick into perfectionism subroutine, sub-loop here, you know, where it's like I'm gonna tweak it, I'm gonna refine it, I'm gonna re- improve it, I'm gonna repeat it, and, and things are still coming in.
John Mollura:We're still not doing anything, right?
John Mollura:So now it's like, "What's wrong with me? Why can't I do anything?" And that's when the int- that's, that's when your inner critic really likes to fire up or the blamer, you know?
John Mollura:Or the other, the other, you know, part of our head that I talk about in the book is, um, the, the drifter, like the shiny object person when we start getting overloaded, and that's when it's like, "Oh, uh, I wonder what's going on on YouTube," kind of thing.
John Mollura:And all that stuff happens, and now we start losing confidence 'cause now we're not doing anything.
John Mollura:We know we should be doing something.
John Mollura:It's like then it, then cue whatever story.
John Mollura:It's like, you know, "I'm not good enough. I messed up again." And then now there's more noise, more pressure, and we're in the same spot.
John Mollura:Now everything feels even more important now time has gone by.
John Mollura:So that's the static loop.
John Mollura:And I know my armpits started sweating a little bit just talking about it.
John Mollura:Real talk, dude.
Mike Forrester:Dude, it, it's, it so does because then it's like you feel guilty- Yeah … you feel shame, you, you feel even more pressure, and, "What's wrong with me?"
Mike Forrester:You know, "What's the disconnect? Why can't I get myself-"
John Mollura:Mm-hmm
John Mollura:… Mike Forrester: you know, doing whatever?
John Mollura:You, you question, "Am I lazy?" Those messages like you talked about, Jon.
John Mollura:You know, you're, you're going to f- to repeat the messages and find the proof-
John Mollura:Mm-hmm
John Mollura:… Mike Forrester: um, to support those messages, and so it just becomes almost like this self-fulfilling prophecy- Yeah
John Mollura:that you've lived out so many times.
John Mollura:So Jon, if, if I find myself in that situation And I'm like, "Okay, I've written everything down." Um, you know, I'm looking at the hits, right?
John Mollura:How long is the halt?
John Mollura:Because when, you know, you say halt, I'm like, "John, this just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. I need to be taking more action and faster action."
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:When you're saying halt, is that something that it's just like maybe five minutes, 15 minutes to assess and kind of go, you know, "Hey, this, this needs to happen," or, you know, "This can be put off a little bit." Is that kind of what you're looking at just to remove some of the pressure?
John Mollura:And it's not like, hey, you gotta halt for days, figure out a plan, you know, get a project management kind of thing going on.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:So, so it-- The halt is meant to be an interrupt in-into that just reaction of, "I'm just gonna do something.
John Mollura:I don't know what to do.
John Mollura:I'm just gonna do something." So it's meant to be really an interrupt, and it's not really meant to be like days, weeks, go find a new pro-productivity widget timer, you know, notebook, pen, I don't know, whatever, what-whatever the, the, the drifter is gonna come up with in your head that, you know, this will solve all my problems.
John Mollura:Um, it, it-- the halt is really just an interrupt because again, like what I know to be true in my own life is when, when you're wired for action or you've just developed that skill set for whatever reason,
John Mollura:hitting the brakes doesn't feel natural, right?
Mike Forrester:Mm.
John Mollura:So it's-- the halt is really just an interrupt for me to be like, "All right, wait, what, what's actually important right now?"
John Mollura:Like a perfect example just happened this week as, as I'm finishing up the book.
John Mollura:My, my designer sent me, you know, one of the final PDFs for review.
John Mollura:He was waiting on my input And he also said in the, in that message, like, "Hey, man, we need to get the ISBN numbers sorted out." Mm-hmm.
John Mollura:"Let me know how you wanna do that.
John Mollura:Here's what I recommend." And I found myself falling down the rabbit hole of becoming an ISBN book number expert, right?
John Mollura:And I was like, I, I used my own framework. I was like, "Hang on, let me hit the brakes.
John Mollura:Do I… D- is this holding it up right now?" No, that's like one of the last things that needs to be happened before they register the book and, you know, put it on the cover design.
John Mollura:What I needed to do was do the thing that scared the hell out of me, which was go through all these words I had written and have it be one of the final passes before this thing gets let out into the world.
John Mollura:I was using that, you know, that, that, that very brave delay of, "Ooh, I need to get the book numbers right," you know?
John Mollura:"My designer said I need that." No, no.
John Mollura:What I needed to do is get the thing proofread so then the book could be done, because the ISBN doesn't matter without the book.
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:It's kinda like, well, I have a cover and some pages and words, and yeah, the, the impact gets lost in, in the process there.
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:And, and John, I think all of us are guilty of that-
John Mollura:For
Mike Forrester:sure
Mike Forrester:at one level or another.
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:And what I find refreshing is you're like, "I wrote the book." Yeah.
Mike Forrester:"This is my own process and f- and framework." And not having, you know, reached the pinnacle, but it's like I still implement, implement this in my life- Yeah … because we can be so critical on ourselves.
Mike Forrester:And John, I would never be critical like that of you.
Mike Forrester:I would never- Right … you know, say those things that, you know- Right … as a, as a guy we say to ourselves.
Mike Forrester:But it's like, I think there's so much power in seeing that it's like, "Hey, I don't have to have it all figured out." Yeah.
Mike Forrester:Like we talked about perfectionism before, right?
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:I don't have to off- all h- have everything figured out.
Mike Forrester:There's freedom in moving forward.
Mike Forrester:And I f- I feel like, you know, it's one of those of as, as men, there's this, this thing called grace that we don't give ourselves-
John Mollura:Right
John Mollura:… Mike Forrester: which says, "Hey, I'm human, I'm fallible.
John Mollura:I'll figure this out Is that something that you find is like grace is one of these things that you don't just need to give to other people, but you need to give it to yourself in order to stay engaged at a, you know, in, in taking those actions and making the decisions?
John Mollura:And absolutely, and that's… And grace and, and, you know, compassion and empathy with myself is not something that, you know, has come naturally for a lot of my life, and I, I have to work on it.
John Mollura:But the reason why I do is not to let myself off the hook, but because when you motivate yourself, when you allow the, your inner critic just to motivate you, that's like saying like the, the beatings are going to continue until morale improves.
Mike Forrester:That's a great way to put it, man.
John Mollura:It's not sustainable.
John Mollura:Like it… But, but the, but the key is just, just like, like that, like if you picture like a pirate ship where they say that
John Mollura:Yes, you can perform out of fear.
John Mollura:You can perform because you're, you're flogging yourself, but you're gonna come across the finish line bruised, battered, bloody, exhausted, and you're not going to be able to enjoy what is actual-- what you've actually worked so hard to do.
John Mollura:So that's the dual-edged sword is yes, it can spur you on, and I've, I've used it extensively in my life to accomplish- Mm-hmm … some extraordinary things, but they weren't that great when I got to the end.
John Mollura:I was a mess.
John Mollura:And that's why I talk about in the book the difference between perfectionism and excellence, because so often people say, "Oh, this has to be perfect.
John Mollura:This is so important, it has to be perfect." And I, I've been fortunate enough to do a lot of work with the first responder community, like literally sometimes life or death choices they're making.
John Mollura:And it comes up a lot whenever I, I work, work with, with them of, you know, we have to strive for perfection because what we're doing is so critical.
John Mollura:And I say, "I'll agree with you on the critical part, but I want to challenge you on aiming for perfection because that is an unattainable standard.
John Mollura:And that- Mm … is a great way to burn yourself out 'cause you're never gonna feel good enough." And I say, "So what do we do if we're not aiming for perfection?" No, we don't just put crap out into the world.
John Mollura:What we need to aim for is excellence, and excellence is doing the best that you can with the time, the resources, the money, the equipment, whatever it is, maybe your current expertise.
John Mollura:Excellence is making sure that you employ all of that to the absolute best of your ability.
John Mollura:If you can bring in support for whatever it is, that's operating at excellence.
John Mollura:And what we also ke- have to keep in mind is what's the requirement of effort here?
John Mollura:Because we can, we can put so much effort and refine something so much that doesn't need it
Mike Forrester:Are you kind of talking about like diminishing returns?
Mike Forrester:So, you know, I spend an additional 10 hours on something to make it just s- you know, 1% better.
Mike Forrester:Is that kind of what you're talking about there?
John Mollura:Ab- absolutely.
John Mollura:No, and, and we ran into this all the time in-- when I was in engineering.
John Mollura:So our, our group's job was to generate the test data for whatever system we were working on, whether it was the spacesuit for NASA or, or something going to Mars.
John Mollura:Our group's job was to make sure that it was going to do what it had to do, and we would have these specifications that were provided to us by the government customer, whomever we were working for.
John Mollura:And a lot of times when we'd present the results, we'd be like, "Hey, it met the specification." And what would happen a lot of times is the design engineers would look at it and be like, "Ooh, hey, wow, that, that was very close to the specification.
John Mollura:It barely passed." And so the knee-jerk reaction is to wanna go back and make it stronger, make it lighter, like whatever it is, get some more margin, some more space between the requirement.
John Mollura:And w- we had a, a, one of our principal engineers, Tim, was so good at this.
John Mollura:He would say, "Guys, pause.
John Mollura:It meets the contractual requirement.
John Mollura:Someone said that that was good enough.
John Mollura:Who are we to say that it's not?
John Mollura:You might want more margin, but that's not what we're signed up for.
John Mollura:You're just gonna delay things.
John Mollura:You're gonna make it more expensive.
John Mollura:We met the specification.
John Mollura:Let's, let's keep going." Yeah.
Mike Forrester:Yeah, not, uh, not continuing to try for that perfectionistic- Right … uh, endpoint.
Mike Forrester:Um, part of what, what you have with the book is, is stop overthinking, take action, live with confidence.
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:And John, I gotta be honest, when I'm in the middle of that overwhelm-
John Mollura:Mm-hmm
Mike Forrester:the last thing I feel is confident.
Mike Forrester:So how do you get from, you know, working through the static loop and, and using- Mm-hmm … HITS to get to a point where you feel confident in, like trusting yourself, right?
Mike Forrester:What you're doing, how you're doing it, how it's turning out.
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:How do you find that confidag- confidence again when you have just fee- s- felt spent-
John Mollura:Yeah
Mike Forrester:from the overwhelm?
John Mollura:Yeah, and, and w- what we need to r- recognize is a lot of times we wait to take action until we feel confident.
John Mollura:That might sound logical, but unfortunately, confidence is not a prerequisite to taking action Confidence is the product of taking the action.
John Mollura:So being a recovering engineer, I have a formula for this
John Mollura:Right?
John Mollura:So A plus B equals C. A plus B equals C. Action plus bravery, that equals confidence.
John Mollura:And a lot of times people will say to me, "Well, John, I, I, I'm not brave." I'll be like, "Why, why do you say you're not brave?" And they'll be like, "Well, I'm scared right now." And I'll say, "Perfect.
John Mollura:I'm glad you are." And they'll, they'll look at me like, "Okay, jerk."
John Mollura:And I'll say, "No, hear me out. The reason why I'm happy to hear you say that you're scared is because you don't get to be brave if you're not scared."
Mike Forrester:Hmm.
John Mollura:The definition of bravery is taking action despite the fear that you're feeling.
John Mollura:So taking action when you're scared, that is what will generate the confidence in your life
Mike Forrester:Wow.
Mike Forrester:Yeah, and I think that is like the stumbling block is, you know, we talked about earlier waiting until we understand enough, right?
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:I'm prepared, I'm ready to go, and that, that point never reaches.
Mike Forrester:And I think th-that's another way to kinda hide, to play safe- Mm-hmm … is waiting until we do feel confident.
Mike Forrester:And you're talking about, "Hey, just do it scared."
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:And I think it's one of those, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, it's not about sitting there in the halt stressing and making sure we have the optimal next right action, but it's going to the best of my knowledge and what I know about things, this is what I believe is the next right action.
Mike Forrester:Is that accurate or is there something different we should be looking at in that process?
John Mollura:No, no, you, you hit it right on the head and, and I address this in, in the book, um, through the lens that General Colin Powell shared in his biography.
John Mollura:He called it his 40/70 rule.
John Mollura:And General Powell, you know, military commander, you know, Desert Storm, Desert Shield, you know, went on to a, a pretty solid political career.
John Mollura:He said, "As a leader, you need to realize you're never gonna have all the information, especially in dynamic situations." And you might not be ordering troops around the battlefield like General Powell was, but he said, "Whatever you're doing, you're never gonna have all the information.
John Mollura:What you need to understand is you need to have a threshold, that if you have too little information, that's reckless to just move forward and go."
John Mollura:So then you have to ask yourself the question of like, "Okay, what are some resources I have?
John Mollura:How could I become smart enough to get a minimum threshold?" He said, "But then you also can't just sit around waiting for all the information 'cause that's never gonna happen." So he said, "Somewhere between 40% to 70% of the information is the sweet spot.
John Mollura:If you can start getting over 40%, then you just rely on your experience as a leader in whatever you're, you're doing to make the decision and take the next right action.
John Mollura:And guess what?
John Mollura:If you're, if you're off the mark, okay, now you're smarter.
John Mollura:Now you've learned a little bit.
John Mollura:Now you can adjust."
Mike Forrester:You're telling me I don't have to have everything figured out before I take a step?
Mike Forrester:John, I don't know, man.
John Mollura:Yeah, I know.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:How reckless is that?
John Mollura:I mean, there, there is something to be said for having a North Star, right, of where you wanna head to.
John Mollura:Like, you know, we use fitness 'cause that's just something easy.
John Mollura:Like, you might have a North Star of like, I don't know, being able to, to, to run the 5K at Thanksgiving in the Turkey Trot- Yeah … you know, 2026.
John Mollura:Cool, that's your North Star, but you don't have to have everything figured out before then.
John Mollura:It might be just like, "You know what I'm gonna do?
John Mollura:I'm gonna get up and walk 10 minutes every day for the next week, and next week it's gonna be 20, and then I'm gonna…
John Mollura:You know, then, then maybe I'll, I'll seek out some expert advice on what to do next." So North Stars are great, but don't let them become a barrier to you just taking the next right action.
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:Y-you had talked about, I believe it was the drifter, right?
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:So there's some, some different personalities or characteristics.
John Mollura:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:Can you go through those and, and kinda give us a highlight of, of, uh, like a description- Yeah … and then what it might look for those in our life?
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:Ab-absolutely.
John Mollura:I, I call them the navigators, right?
John Mollura:These are, these are the voices… N-not voices in your head.
John Mollura:These are the, you know, the-these are kind of the, the, the-- whoever gets into the cockpit of your, of your life and, and steers the course.
John Mollura:And they live at the intersection of two lines.
John Mollura:And if you think of the up and down line, the bottom is autopilot, at the top is awareness, and then you have a cross left to right.
John Mollura:On one side is judgment, and the other side is curiosity.
John Mollura:And each of these navigators lives at the intersection.
John Mollura:So the drifter lives at the intersection of autopilot and aware- and curiosity So the drifter is curious about what's going on.
John Mollura:It's, it doesn't have its head in, you know, it, it wants to know.
John Mollura:It's open-minded, but it's also on autopilot.
John Mollura:So it's just kind of floating through life, and when the pressure gets on, it's like, "Oh, hey man, this isn't cool.
John Mollura:I'm gonna just kind of float on over here." So the drifter is the navigator that takes over, like when we start feeling overwhelmed maybe, and start looking for tho- those pressure release, which are really just a fancy distraction, like the new timer or like I said, the, the pen or whatever you have, whatever you, you think is gonna save the day.
John Mollura:That's the drifter when they get a, a hold of things.
John Mollura:And when the drifter takes over, we wanna shift out of that.
John Mollura:It's like, what can I do for the next two minutes that's actually gonna move the needle forward for what I want, right?
John Mollura:Like, let me, let me set a small goal here.
John Mollura:And then the next navigator that I talk about and I mentioned earlier is the blamer.
John Mollura:The blamer lives at the intersection of autopilot and judgment.
John Mollura:So the blamer's got lots of opinions.
John Mollura:It's very judgy, right?
John Mollura:But it's on autopilot because it intentionally puts blinders on to what is my responsibility in this situation?
John Mollura:The blamer just likes to be like, "Well, you know, if gas prices weren't so high, I could do this," or, "If the interest rates were better, I could do this," or, "If that person would, would stop doing that, then I could finally do this," blah, blah.
John Mollura:You know, all, all the stories.
John Mollura:It's always someone else's fault.
John Mollura:The issue with the blamer is when we let the blamer take the controls, we give up all of our agency, meaning we might say that it's-- we can't do what we want because of XYZ, but really we've just surrendered all of our power to do anything
John Mollura:So to shift out of the blamer, I always, I always tell people, ask yourself the question of what's my 1%?
John Mollura:What's my 1%?
John Mollura:Meaning when something happens, it can be very easy to be like, "That's all this person's fault. This person did that, blah, blah, blah, didn't do that." I say, "Well, just halt, hit the brakes. Ask yourself, how did you contribute to this even if it's 1%?" Because you're never entirely blameless.
John Mollura:And I'm talking about adults here, like, you know, when, when we're making our own decisions.
John Mollura:Like, yes, bad things happen, but
John Mollura:We've, we've put ourself in that situation.
John Mollura:It might be a decision we made days, weeks, months, maybe even years ago that have-- has con- you know, conspired to have us arrive here.
John Mollura:So I'm not saying that to make people feel bad about themselves.
John Mollura:I'm saying that to give people the realization that like, "You know what?
John Mollura:Let me own how I've contributed, even if it's only 1% to this, because then now I know.
John Mollura:Now I know what to look for.
John Mollura:Now I know what to potentially change.
John Mollura:Now I know how to respond differently." And then the third navigator is the critic.
John Mollura:Critic lives at the intersection of awareness and judgment.
John Mollura:So the critic knows what's going on.
John Mollura:It's aware.
John Mollura:Its head's not in the sand like the drifter, right?
John Mollura:And the critic is just gonna beat you up from the inside out.
John Mollura:And ironically, the critic's job is to keep you safe.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:To keep us playing small, to do so- to, to not rock the boat, because as social creatures, we've evolved that, like, we don't wanna do anything and th- that could get us kicked out of the group.
John Mollura:You know, in old days, like the village, 'cause if you got kicked out of the village, like, you're kinda screwed.
John Mollura:You're gonna be dinner for something with teeth and big fur.
John Mollura:You know?
John Mollura:Like I said that backwards.
John Mollura:Fur and big teeth.
John Mollura:And y- you hit the nail on the head before.
John Mollura:It's like to get out of the mindset of the critic, I always tell people, ask yourself like what would you say to your buddy if they came to you with that?
John Mollura:You wouldn't talk to them like that.
John Mollura:You'd be like, "Well, yeah. All right, man. Well, you did drop the ball, but let's take stock of where you're at, how much work you've already done, how much better off you are, and let's, let's come up with a plan." Like, that's what you'd say to a friend.
John Mollura:Whereas ourselves, we're like, "What?
John Mollura:I'm an idiot.
John Mollura:I can't believe I did this again," you know.
John Mollura:Uh, "I'm a failure, and nothing's ever going to change." And those absolute words like always, never, everyone, no one are big hallmarks to listen for, to be like, "Wait a minute, this isn't true." Yeah.
John Mollura:Because those absolute words speak to perfection.
John Mollura:No one, everyone, never, always.
John Mollura:We already talked about perfection doesn't exist, so they're, they're constructs.
John Mollura:Now, who we wanna have control is the seeker, right?
John Mollura:That's the navigator that lives at the intersection of awareness and curiosity.
John Mollura:Because we wanna be aware of what's going on, but we also wanna be curious enough to be like, "Okay, what, what am I learning here?
John Mollura:What can I do differently?" So those are the four navigators that, that I talk about in the book
Mike Forrester:Cool.
Mike Forrester:And I like the distinction between each of them.
Mike Forrester:What I th- really think is interesting is y- you know, we've talked about hiding in your learning, right?
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:You're not saying, you know, like the seeker.
Mike Forrester:The seeker is learning, but he's also taking action.
John Mollura:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:And, you know, it's, it's one of those of, yes, go learn, but don't just sit and learn.
Mike Forrester:Don't, don't be like, don't be like the ineffective, inactive, uh, version of yourself that has lots of knowledge but no results.
John Mollura:Right.
Mike Forrester:Learn, go take action.
Mike Forrester:Maybe it's not, uh…
Mike Forrester:You know, it's imperfect results, let's say.
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:But you're doing the best you can- Uh-huh … and you're learning from the results and the action that you've taken, so.
John Mollura:Right.
Mike Forrester:I really like that.
Mike Forrester:Um, when you look at the coaching you've done and then what you're teaching in the book- Mm-hmm … what's, like, the biggest challenge for people to, you know, really l- learn and then act upon?
Mike Forrester:Like, what's the biggest stumbling block in what, what you're seeing from, from the, the teaching that you have there in the book, Jon?
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:The, the, the biggest stumbling block I, I've seen, especial- especially high performers, is
John Mollura:Being a lot of times so, so astute and, and intellectual and intelligent is they can create a lot of stories.
John Mollura:I mean, p- present company, myself, not excluded.
John Mollura:Like, I can craft a story.
John Mollura:I can put meaning on stuff that's not there.
John Mollura:So what I-- the, the biggest stumbling block I see for people is, number one, becoming aware of this and then begin to separate the data from the drama.
John Mollura:How do we separate data, what actually happened, what a camera would've recorded from the drama that we put on top of it, all the stories based on our experiences, our assumptions, our intuitions?
John Mollura:Like, how do we separate the two?
John Mollura:Because whenever we start overlaying the drama on top of the, the facts, that's where things can get really muddied.
Mike Forrester:So how do you do that?
Mike Forrester:Like, let's say, um, I did something at home, it didn't work out.
Mike Forrester:I've got the m- the critic in my head, you know, telling me, "Yeah, hey, this is how you always do it.
Mike Forrester:You're not gonna get it right.
Mike Forrester:You know, why try?" How do you get to just being able to see it, you know, the data-
John Mollura:Mm-hmm
John Mollura:… Mike Forrester: without that drama that is, is playing?
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:You know, maybe we left the TV on too freaking long here.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:You know, pla- playing that drama, but how do we get to just being able to see the data and separate that out?
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:The-- well, the first thing I wanna address is the, the drama's never gonna go away.
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
John Mollura:Like, that's just the-- like, welcome to being human.
John Mollura:Like, we're, we're going to put stories on things.
John Mollura:So le- let's, let's just make peace with the fact that it's never going to go away.
John Mollura:Okay, cool.
John Mollura:It's going to be there.
John Mollura:So the key is to recognize when it's showing up, and instead of just letting it completely drive the train, so to speak.
John Mollura:And an example would be like, you know, sending a proposal out to a client.
John Mollura:Right?
John Mollura:You send a proposal out.
John Mollura:They said, "Send it by Friday so we can make a decision by Monday afternoon."
Mike Forrester:Hmm.
John Mollura:Monday afternoon comes, you don't hear.
John Mollura:Okay.
John Mollura:What's the data?
John Mollura:You didn't hear back from them.
John Mollura:What's the drama we're gonna start piling on?
John Mollura:Maybe my email didn't go through.
John Mollura:Oh my gosh, maybe I bid too high.
John Mollura:Maybe I bid too low.
John Mollura:Maybe they're not taking me seriously.
John Mollura:Maybe my competitor sabotaged me.
John Mollura:What am I even doing in this business?
John Mollura:This is the third one in a month that no one took.
John Mollura:I probably shouldn't be doing this.
John Mollura:I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
John Mollura:This is a waste of time.
John Mollura:When really, Bob forgot that his team was on vacation and they may message you back the next week.
John Mollura:Like, that's the difference between data and drama, whereas like when you start spiraling like that, you can be like, "Wait a minute.
John Mollura:Is this true?
John Mollura:Is this true?
John Mollura:Do I actually have facts to support this?" And a lot of times if, if we ask that question, do I have facts to support this, we'll be like, "No, I don't."
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:Yeah, and I think that's in that emotional state, it's kind of comes back to your halt that you're talking about.
Mike Forrester:I think that's, that's really what we need to take away from this.
Mike Forrester:Your, your next book just needs to be called Halt.
John Mollura:Noted.
Mike Forrester:So we're, we're out and letting it fly this time.
Mike Forrester:Next time we need to halt- There we go … because it's like, John, I, I'm guilty of this, and I see it so many times in, in talking with other men that it's like, man, I'm just go, go, go.
Mike Forrester:I'm wrapped up in taking some action or having some thoughts, you know, going through my head that aren't
Mike Forrester:Aren't encouraging- True
Mike Forrester:right?
Mike Forrester:It's those negative beliefs and messages.
Mike Forrester:And so I, I love the fact of just stop, ask, you know, is this actually true?
Mike Forrester:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:Instead of just letting those thoughts fly through and have, you know, power and reign over, um, you know, our emotions, thoughts, and, you know, just how we're ending up in our presence, right?
Mike Forrester:So…
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:Yeah, absolutely.
John Mollura:And then the critical changes games.
John Mollura:Well, they could be true, or maybe they are true and you're not aware of it, and it's like, "No."
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
John Mollura:There-- M- okay, let me, let me, let me see what else I can, I can get some information on here.
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:And if you f- if you find out stuff is true, then it's like what do you take to adjust and what- Mm-hmm
Mike Forrester:what needs to be rebalanced and moved around?
Mike Forrester:I mean-
John Mollura:Yeah, that gets back to what's my 1%, right?
John Mollura:What, what-
Mike Forrester:True, yes
Mike Forrester:… John Mollura: what, what part of this have I played into unknowingly or not?
Mike Forrester:Yeah.
Mike Forrester:Well, dude, John, this has been absolutely just so helpful in, in-
John Mollura:Awesome
John Mollura:… Mike Forrester: looking at, hey, I'm not a victim of my situation, right?
John Mollura:I have power.
John Mollura:I can take action.
John Mollura:Mm-hmm.
Mike Forrester:And action is not always the thing to turn to.
Mike Forrester:Like we, you know, we just talked about, talked about earlier.
Mike Forrester:Sometimes it's stop and make a decision and assess- Hmm … and then take the right action, you know, the next right action.
John Mollura:Yep.
Mike Forrester:Um, John, if guys are like, "Dude, love this, the book, what you're talking about"-
John Mollura:Mm-hmm
Mike Forrester:where can they, they pick it up and then where… You know, uh, the-- obviously, I think the expectation is to read it and then work through the exercises.
Mike Forrester:Is there anything that you would recommend beyond that as well to, like, do that helps them expand and, and have a more powerful result from reading your book?
John Mollura:I think, I think setting themselves up for success to, to read the book is probably paramount because we, we do things with good intentions, like we'll buy the book, the q- like whatever, but we haven't realized, like, okay, have I carved out some intentional time for this?
John Mollura:And carving out intentional time to go through the book, even if it's like 10 minutes at a time, like the book was written for people that feel overwhelmed, and people that are overwhelmed don't feel like they have a lot of time.
John Mollura:So intentionally carve out like a few minutes, and if you say you don't have 10 minutes, I'd say, "Show me your screen usage on your phone." Right?
John Mollura:I guarantee you- No,
Mike Forrester:no, you can't see that, John.
John Mollura:Yeah, no.
John Mollura:No, I'm not gonna share.
John Mollura:No.
John Mollura:No data for you.
John Mollura:Um, but, but it's like be intentional.
John Mollura:Set a couple minutes and, and have that be your goal.
John Mollura:If 10 minutes feels too long right now, cool, five.
John Mollura:Five minutes is too long?
John Mollura:Fine.
John Mollura:Right.
John Mollura:Two minutes.
John Mollura:Whatever, whatever it takes for you to just kinda get off the dime, because those small consistent actions are what are going to start compounding and building momentum.
John Mollura:But the problem is they're not sexy and fun to talk about.
John Mollura:Yeah.
John Mollura:But that is what makes things powerful, is that momentum that we built.
John Mollura:So build that intentionally in small increments.
Mike Forrester:Perfect.
Mike Forrester:And John, I will put a link to your book in the show notes so that guys can grab it, and, uh, looking forward to reading the whole thing myself.
Mike Forrester:So John, thank you so much, my friend, for everything you've shared today.
Mike Forrester:And, uh, dude, just awesome to have you back again, so thank you, my friend.
John Mollura:Yeah, good to see you again, Mike.
John Mollura:Thanks so much.
Mike Forrester:You got it.
Mike Forrester:Thank you.
