Facing Your Mortality to Live with Purpose and Fulfillment with Andrew Petty

Andrew Petty: Awesome. And glad to be here, Mike. Thanks for the opportunity.

Mike Forrester: Yeah, I appreciate it. Great.

Andrew Petty: How are you?

Mike Forrester: Great to chat again. I'm doing phenomenal, man. I'm, I'm pumped cause, uh, I remember our last chat when we first met, it was like, dude, where have you been? You know, it's, it's like one of those, you just gravitate and it's like those, uh, those friends that you've always had, but didn't know you had.

Andrew Petty: Yeah. Kindred spirits. Yeah.

Andrew Petty: I'm a life coach. I have a podcast called Andrew Petty is Dying. Um, masterminds called the Graveyard Group and also do one on one coaching. Um, and more recently, um, established something called Growth Camp, which currently is built around the Hero's Journey framework for helping us have not only a tool for viewing our past with greater clarity, but also a compass for moving forward with more courage, purpose, uh, focus, and direction. Uh, into our future. So we've become more proactive agents in the creation of our future. Um, and I do that out of Steamboat Springs, Colorado, where I live here with my wife, um, of almost 19 years. And my two boys, 11 and 14, um, and I work with folks here locally. I work with folks remotely. Um, and I've been doing that since about 2016 in one way or another, there was sort of a pre COVID version of that profession. And there was a post COVID version of that profession, um, driven by some of the economic hardships that came about then. So, but that's [00:03:00] me in a nutshell now.

Mike Forrester: Gotcha. And dude, Steamboat Springs is beautiful, especially like going skiing, but also in the summer, dude.

Andrew Petty: Come see me. My office is right on the river. Um, and then just down to my right is a great taco place. Just down to my left is all kinds of other things. And I've got the house and the old school ski mountain across the way. And the new one, um, to my left. So come on. I'm in a great spot. Come see me.

Mike Forrester: Oh, I'm packing my bags afterwards.

Andrew Petty: Yeah.

Mike Forrester: Well, let's jump into the other side. What is personal, like on the personal side of life, what does that look like for you?

Mike Forrester: That's cool. Yeah, being in a place where you can be outdoors and that's something that speaks to you. Dude, that's a great combination there.

Andrew Petty: One of the things I love about Steamboat is it has all the elements and, um, and, and really dramatically so. And I found that having the changing of the seasons is a way to continue to shift through the gears of our life, um, and it would be difficult for me to live somewhere where the climate was the same all the time. Um, because there's just something about the changes of the seasons that helps you shift through the gears of your life. And, you know, it's a constant cycle of death and rebirth, which is, you know, the pattern for the human experience at it's most basic level.

Andrew Petty: Short answer is no, I didn't know it was causing it with, um, the benefit of hindsight though. Um, my armchair psychologizing leads me to believe that it was the culmination of years of accumulated psychological load. Um, and my psyche reached a breaking point. And the result was this, um, going from fairly normally functioning according to certain metrics to [00:08:00] suddenly not functioning. Um, the load psychically just became too much. Um, and again, with the benefit of hindsight, I see that anxiety had been present in my life for as long as I could remember, but never in, uh, never to degrees that were severe enough or durations long enough for people around me to go, huh, that doesn't seem quite right for a kid his age or for a kid at his stage development because it was sort of flare up and the be tamped down. Um, and you know, my parents have said, um, we just weren't aware of what was going on and you know, that's often the case for we as parents. I mean, we're doing what we can. We're trying to stay in tune with our kids and we're also doing the work and the job and you know, we want things to be well. So sometimes we just believe that they're well, um, even if things aren't really. So I think it was years of accumulated psychological load of, um, a deeply intense interpersonal life that wasn't being vented or, um, [00:09:00] accessed externally in ways that kind of bled that energy off. And in time, it just erupted. Now, the specific circumstances were I had graduated college and my senior year lost my starting spot on the soccer team. Um, my own psychology was such that, you know, I thought if anything on the soccer field happened, that was, uh, detrimental, it was somehow my fault. And you can't perform at a high level as an athlete when you think that everything that happens on the field is ultimately traceable back to you. And so by the time I was at the end of my junior year, that psychological load had really so deteriorated my performance that I lost my starting spot. Um, and that was a big blow to me because soccer had been, um, a significant building block of my identity. Um, it was probably good that that building block got, um, you know, sort of wedged out cause that's not a good foundation to build our lives on. Um, but it was at that point, I think that some depression began to set in and, you know, take, uh, my senior [00:10:00] year, a year or two following that I was doing some cool things. I was working at a ranch out in Colorado, but there was just this, um, undercurrent of sadness and uncertainty and depression. And by the time I got probably two or three years out of college, um, there was a triggering event. And that was that, um, I began to have some vague physical symptoms that I definitely was experiencing, but I couldn't really describe very well. And the medical community couldn't help me understand what was going on either. And at the same time, my mom's dad had died, um, of a heart attack after living 18 years on a quadruple bypass. And so my mom was very sensitized to anything cardiac related. And I'm telling her about what I'm experiencing. She goes, gosh, that sounds cardiac. And it was like, boom. I mean, this generalized anxiety that had been sort of shuffling around in my heart and mind for something to grab on to just went, that's it. And so the flavor of anxiety that began to really beset me was [00:11:00] uh, just paralyzing fear of catastrophic health events and mortality. Um, and I went from functioning okay, um, but still with not a lot of direction in my life to just really unable to function, but above the, you know, barely above the bare minimum. Um, I was, had pretty menial job in stock rooms and retail locations, you know, definitely underperforming in terms of my capacity, um, but barely holding it together. It was miserable. I mean, there was a, there was a point at which, and I remember very clearly in the very early stages of the anxiety that I remember saying to myself, if this doesn't change, I will not stick around longer. Um, this is so painful that I cannot live much longer like that. And I realized, Oh, that's what they call a suicidal thought. Um, this is serious. I've got to begin figuring this out. So to anyone out there suffering from anxiety, whether you are aware of some of the origins of it or not, and I'm still not very clear on it and there's some [00:12:00] family history, there are enough breadcrumbs to lead me to believe that maybe something or some set of things happened earlier than I'm able to remember. I mean, it just is sort of like something's missing here. Uh, um, but to anyone who's experiencing it, you know, my heart goes out to you. Um, it is extremely painful. It's an extremely painful private battle. Um, it's also a battle that can bring with it an intense amount of shame. And I think for we men especially so, and, uh, if it is relevant in this conversation today, I'll just share how at one point, just a few years ago, I realized how shame ridden I was by the fact that anxiety had been my, you know, one of my chief battles as an adult because no one can see it. Um, it's easy for other people to think, um, that I ought to be able to just deal with it and move on. Or medicate it and move on. But when you're the one dealing with it, you know, it feels very different than that. And you do not feel as if it's something you can just simply move on from. [00:13:00] Um, so there's a lot of shame associated with the two and for anyone out there struggling with anxiety, um, my heart goes out to you. It's very, very difficult. Um, and there is hope there is a way forward.

Andrew Petty: Yeah, I mean, I was, I was really a golden child. I was a rock star and I don't say that any sort of boasting way, but that was just, if you looked at me, all of the normal cultural metrics were just off the charts, excelling academically, excelling athletically. Um, if one can do this, I was excelling spiritually according to the observable metrics. Um, and so for my parents, it was kind of like, well, what do you do with a kid that doesn't appear to have any area where he's struggling? I guess he's okay. And, you know, to all the parents out there, I would say sometimes it's apparent when our kids are struggling and sometimes it's not whether or not they appear to be struggling, um, do what you can to create and maintain open channels of communication that give them a safe environment in which to share what's really happening on the inside. Because I think one of the most painful discrepancies I experienced growing up was the discrepancy between the inward person and the [00:15:00] outward person. And the more painful that distinction became, the more I poured myself into outward performance as a way to prop up the deficiencies I felt internally. And part of the pain of that was people would look at me and say, Andrew, you've got it all. I mean, you've got it all, man. What is the problem? And I'd be like, I don't know. And that was a particular pain for me. It was cause I didn't understand it. Um, I just knew that I hurt inside. Um, uh, so, you know, parents, um, do what you can to create those conversations and keep the open lines of communication available for your child so that at least they know they can take advantage of them. Don't judge the book by the cover. Um, figure out how to dig into how your kid's really doing.

Andrew Petty: There were some providential interventions and I use the word providential, um, um, consciously, purposely. Um, a pastor at a church that I was a part of, um, befriended me and allowed me the opportunity to just begin, um, unloading the many, many years of accumulated stuff within me that had never really been put on deposit with anyone else or sorted through verbally for myself. Um, [00:18:00] and so there were many evenings I was in his living room just talking and he was just listening. Um, and that allowed me to begin to find some footing, even though the anxiety really persisted, you know, in pretty significant ways for many, many years. Um, and I still have a propensity toward that. And I can tell when it's beginning to try to get my attention and want me to engage. Um, so it's still there, but in those early years, you know, being able to put on deposit with someone else, someone who I could trust, someone who I could tell cared and was competent in terms of their ability to receive and manage the extremities of human emotion, um, was critical. Um, so I did begin to find some solid footing. Um, I found my first sort of adult vocational chapter, which I was in for 14 years at that church, uh, that that pastor led. Um, was fortunate enough to get my act together enough to, um, [00:19:00] draw to my side, a wonderful woman. So I got married and then, uh, we had two wonderful boys within two and a half years of each other. And so some of the external, uh, what would we call them, fixtures of an adult life were beginning to come into play. And I would say that, um, I think it's in vogue today to call those things optional. And, um, I realized for some people, those things aren't always an option. They may want them, but they remain elusive for reasons that may be clear or may not be clear. And so there's a certain subset of people for whom those things aren't available for a variety of reasons. But you know, for most of us, I think those external fixtures, um, uh, committed marriage partnership, the, the bringing of kids into the world and the rearing of kids. I think those are really essential fixtures in our world in order to begin to force some of the points of maturity in our lives that [00:20:00] allow us to move beyond points of immaturity. And that certainly was true for me, um, and allowed me to meet, to have some of these watershed moments developmentally that allowed me to escape the gravitational pull of the anxiety and move forward anyway, into new chapters and into new phases that allow me to then continue to break free of the gravitational pull of the anxiety even more. And you mentioned earlier, you know, the antidote to anxiety being action. And I, I wholeheartedly affirm that as valid and true because that's been my experience. And I think that holds up, you know, theoretically in all respects.

Andrew Petty: Here's what I think, here's what I think it was. Mike. It was that, um, at least in part, it was that when you have, uh, a committed marriage partnership and the, uh, needs of two young humans in your midst, unless you completely abdicate those responsibilities, you don't have the opportunity to give to your internal woes as much attention as you might have in the absence of those things and those people. That's part of the value of having those things in our world. And I think that they're, you know, not to serve us necessarily, but they do serve us in our development. So I think it's very difficult to become the human being that we can come apart from those kinds of external influences, inviting those responsibilities into our world.

Andrew Petty: Yeah.

Mike Forrester: Not just, uh, churning the water, so to speak.

Mike Forrester: Yeah. It's definitely a key component for me. And I've told the guys, you know, if, if you don't hear from me, reach out. So it's, you know, we can still hide. It's one of those habits that we've coped with, but it's not beneficial at all for, uh, you know, my health and, uh, and growth.

Mike Forrester: Yeah. That's a powerful point. That was one boat that I missed for the longest time. And, uh.

Andrew Petty: Me too.

Andrew Petty: And if we want to be really brutally honest about it, when we allow ourselves to stay stuck in those places of victimhood and woe is me, and they did this to me, and so how can you expect me to possibly move on, um, in adulthood it becomes a thinly veiled and not so clever way of avoiding responsibility and avoiding moving forward in ways that create vulnerabilities and exposure and exposes to risk and all the things that are necessary in order for us to move forward and produce and accomplish something in the world. And that's one of the reasons why it's so important that we really break the power of that in our lives. When we stay stuck in that pattern and continue to blame circumstances or other people for our failures to thrive, [00:27:00] we may not consciously register it, but deep, on a deep level, it is feeding back into that narrative that we're not competent and we can't do it. And it feeds into this self loathing on all the things that can lead men to think poorly of themselves and to underperform. And so we've really got, as men, to say, hold up, the buck stops here with me. I don't know how it all came to this moment, but from this moment forward, I'm not going to accept anyone being responsible for myself, but me, I'm 100% responsible for me. And I'm going to learn how to be appropriately responsible for other people. And I think if all of us in the world made that switch in this moment, right now, the world would immediately become a higher functioning, um, better place to live in. Because one of the underlying maladies of the human condition is blame shifting and not assuming responsibility. Um, and it is, it cannot be underestimated or overestimated how unbelievably cancerous, that is. And for we men, especially because we are [00:28:00] made to, uh, go on missions, to go on adventures, to accomplish, to push the borders and the frontiers and that can be physical frontiers and borders, it can be mental, it can be, um, you name it technical. I mean, there are all kinds of frontiers that we can venture into. But I think we're especially made for that. And I don't mean to say that women aren't, but there's something in men that rises to that occasion, that gets inspired by thoughts of that. Um, and when we shrink back from that, um, we know what we're doing and it causes us to hate ourselves even more. And we've got to take ownership and that's a, hold on, no, I'm gonna. There's six things I found that I think are essential ingredients in the recipe for a life will be outrageously proud of when we die. And I just call them the big six and in order of significance, they cascade on the, on each other. I think it's courage, humility, truth telling, self permission, self responsibility, and self knowledge. Um, there's nothing meaningful in life that I've yet discovered that doesn't [00:29:00] first involve courage. It takes courage to love. It takes courage to trust. It takes courage to be humble. That's why humility is second. But humility allows us to say, I'm going to be precisely who I am in the world, no more and no less. So that as I present that version of myself to the world, it can be tested against reality and its deficiencies can be revealed, and its competencies can be revealed such that I can amplify my competencies and, uh, find remedies for my deficiencies or find ways to mitigate the impact of those deficiencies. Um, so I think the big six are really powerful ingredients for everyone. Um, and we're talking to men, especially today, Mike, um, especially for we men to get serious about. Um, and the good news about this recipe, my wife and I both hate to cook. So we'd like ingredients with like one or two, you know, recipes of one or two ingredients. And the good thing about this recipe is all you have to do is add more and you know you're creating something good.

Andrew Petty: Yeah. I didn't have to look very far to take stock. All I had to do was look down at my gut and find that I was 50 to 60 pounds over my fighting weight. And that was a [00:31:00] consequence of me deciding somewhere along the line that the only real battle I was going to fight was against the anxiety. And I was going to just live and let live on the other frontiers and also pick up some really unfortunate coping habits along the way that included abusing alcohol as a way to mitigate the intensity of the anxiety in the moment and also picked up smoking, wasn't exercising, eating whenever I wanted. And he got the cancer diagnosis. I looked down at my gut, looked at my beautiful wife and boys and went, wow, I don't know when I'm going to die and I can't exactly control it, but I'm not doing what I can to keep myself in this world. And it was like bam. I mean, nothing had ever lit a fire under me, like the awareness of my mortality and a clear why for sticking around, um, in the form of my family and within nine months I had lost all that weight. I was back to my fighting weight. My nutrition was being overhauled. I was slowly learning to move away from those bad coping habits. And it was just, you know, it was such a transformation that people around me began to express concern, like, and this is in the Southeast, Southeastern [00:32:00] Virginia, where like casseroles and, you know, second and third and fourth helpings are the norm. They began to ask, are you okay? I mean, Andrew, eat a little more. And, um, I said, no, actually this is what healthy looks like. You know, before I was, you know, I was in a slow decline into middle age mediocrity. And um, so it, I didn't register it back then the way that I register it now, but mortality kicked my butt into shape and in a way that nothing else ever had. And in the therapeutic world, the coaching world that you and I inhabit, um, we're always looking for those things that will help, uh, resolve the ambivalence that I want to, but I don't want to. That'll slowly get one, someone moving more in the direction of, I want to, and taking action in that direction. And you know, we spend a lot of time looking for the whys and this, that, and the other. Well, what I found was that mortality cut through all of that. I didn't have to fiddle around with all of my, you know, my, um, unformed habits and lack of discipline. It was like you're going to die. Eventually. You're not helping [00:33:00] yourself live. What matters to you most? Okay, get after it. Um, and so it was a stark realization that created a big transformation in my own life. And then fast forwarding a number of years, when I got into the coaching work, I realized, Holy smoke. Uh, you know, I have a somewhat neurotic fixation with mortality because of the anxious edge that I bring to it. But maybe most of us in the Western affluent world don't think about it enough. Um, which is why I've brought that into the work that I do now.

Andrew Petty: Until there is something threatening us and some often then it's too little, too late. Too much water under the bridge. Um, you can't go back and recoup the losses in relationships, um, too little, too late. And, you know, the comforts and conveniences that we've created in the affluent Western world are wonderful. I don't at all, uh, feel guilty for them. I mean, they're the remarkable accomplishments of human engineering and ingenuity, and comfort and conveniences kill. Period. Um, if that's where we stop, in my opinion, the comforts and conveniences that we've accrued in the fluent Western world are meant to create this remarkable launch pad, this of extravagant resourcing from which we can then move forward to do things that the rest of the world doesn't find available to them because of different resourcing. Um, but you [00:35:00] know, we affluent Westerners get situated in our comfort and our convenience and then are befuddled as to why we're unhappy. And it's because those comforts and conveniences were never sources of contentment to begin with. True sources of contentment for the human animal are found in adventure and risk and vulnerability, in pushing the boundaries and pursuing new frontiers, in allowing ourselves to experience discomfort. Um, and that's why I say comfort kills. And I think it's one of the things that in the 21st century is causing our culture to somewhat fold in upon itself as we all attempt to, um, avoid any pangs of discomfort or anything that would, um, be unpleasant. When in fact that's what we need to be moving toward. It's a big deal. Comfort kills.

Andrew Petty: 100%. I mean, you know, all the people that you hear about from, um, deathbed accounts, the most painful regrets are around, uh, relationships, unmended relationships, relationships not pursued, um, words not said, and also things not attempted. So much less rarely do people regret things tried and you know, that either didn't work out as they hoped or, you know, just didn't get the result they'd hoped, but, um, people regret not doing the things that they dreamed of. And, um, um, so for sure. Um, [00:37:00] and you know, it's easy in the affluent Western world to let one day roll into the next. And what I found so valuable about mortality is it reminds us I've only got today. There is never tomorrow. The benefit of, there's multiple benefits of training ourselves to think about that way and cultivating what I call the mortality mindset. Um, number one, it dramatically simplifies our lives because I've only got today. I can only deal with what's in front of me today. What is available to me that I can influence or control to make today as great a day as I can make it? Um, and when I'm on my game, you know, I might start a day by thinking if today ended well, what would that look like? I would have called my sister or, you know, I would have had that difficult conversation with a friend that needed to be had, or I would have tackled that work project that I've been putting off and I know if I keep putting it off and never do it, I'll regret. Um, it's easy to live in one day increments, um, but we get lulled into thinking that we have multiple one day increments [00:38:00] and we really don't. Um, so it dramatically simplifies life and it focuses our existence. Um, and then it forces some urgency into our existence where maybe you've been thinking about calling that friend, but just haven't, um, make the call. Um, and when we do that work, it compounds positively toward our inevitable demise, um, and reduces the number of regrets that we might experience on our deathbed, um, and it works against that negative compounding interest of undone things and unfulfilled relationships and all that. So, um, you know, the hero's journey is a framework that I have become so, so enamored with. Um, and many of you and many of our listeners might be familiar with it, but it's an ancient framework that was, you know, really well formulated by Joseph Campbell in the 20th century and it's derived from all of mankind's most ancient mythologies and it basically demonstrates that there's one story. Um, the humanity has been living out [00:39:00] over the eons and for as long as humanity has been around. And it's the story of the normal person living in their status quo, normal world being called to either an involuntary or moving toward a voluntary adventure. And that adventure inevitably takes them out of their status quo in their known world and into an unknown realm. Full of uncertainty and perils and along the way they acquire companions and allies and go through trials of character and physical trials and sometimes there's actual dragons to slay in mythology, but sometimes those dragons are in dragons of anxiety or dragons of relationship, but always behind that dragon is the treasure that we seek and the treasure that we need. And Joseph Campbell said the cave that we fear to enter, holds the treasure that we seek. Um, and as we continue through that underworld of the unknown, we eventually emerge back into the normal world, but now transformed and with treasure in tow to offer the rest of the world. That is a path to deep contentment, meaning and fulfillment. It's a path of tremendous discomfort as well. [00:40:00] Um, but we avoid that discomfort at our peril. We engage that discomfort, um, to our great benefit and the world's great benefit.

Andrew Petty: Uh, one of them that was really instrumental for me was a concept from psychology called the drama triangle. It's derived from a framework called transactional analysis, which is a way of understanding interactions between people. Um, and just as briefly as I can, the drama triangle is sort of a sub framework derived from transactional analysis that identifies three different states of victimhood that, um, each of us as adults, um, sometimes use. Um, victim, which is classic victim. I feel helpless. I feel hopeless. I need others to help me. I don't understand myself. I don't know how to find my way in the world. There's persecutor, which is the world's out to get me. Um, everybody's got to take care of their own. I'll get mine. You get yours. Um, then there's rescuer, which is, um, looking for a victim to help. Um, and each of these states of victimhood are derived [00:42:00] from our families of origin and our early childhood experience. When we learned to fulfill a certain role in our family, in order to find our place and to find a way to succeed and thrive. The problem is that we move into adulthood, if we don't become aware of our default mode, then we continue to play out that script in ways that become increasingly, um, destructive in our relationships and it just is on repeat and one relationship don't work out. We move, make a lateral move to another one. That one works maybe a little bit longer than that one fizzles out and we move on. And it helped me to see that I'd come into adulthood in classic victim default mode and that it was time for me to take responsibility and figure out how to become competent and to get off of that drama triangle. Often what we do, instead of when we realize, we tend to bounce between these three victim, persecutor, and rescuer. So, victim needs a rescuer. Um, persecutor, I probably am not going to get this all right, but a persecutor likes a victim to [00:43:00] be able to demean, um, a rescuer is always attempting to save. So we tend to bounce between those different functions in order to derive, to extract from the other person, the need that we need to have met or the response that we want to have met. It's a completely dysfunctional cycle. Any of us can look at some of the relationships in our lives and see some elements of that. But that framework helped me to acknowledge that I'd come into adulthood in the classic victim role, and it was mine to figure out how to escape the drama triangle and begin to take complete responsibility for myself and appropriate responsibility for others. Um, it was hard to see, especially a dude, I think, to acknowledge, you know, that I've been a victim is sort of like, that's low. You know, actually that disgust around the scene, that was part of what motivated me, like, well, I got to get rid of that. Cause that's not good, for me or anybody. Um, so transactional analysis in the drama triangle I found to be very useful. You can find tons of information about that online. Um, in [00:44:00] the past three to four years, um, a distance mentor of sorts, someone who doesn't know me, but who I know very well through their, um, content, has been Jordan Peterson. And, um, he's probably been the single most influential mentor in my life. Period bar none. Full stop. Um, because his message around responsibility as a path to meaning and purpose. Responsibility as a meaning as a, as a path toward, um, um, happiness and contentment. Um, that probably is one of the two or three primary themes in what he's offering to the world that I found especially useful and, um, I think especially for men to be particularly useful in 21st century. You know, my armchair psychology and psychologizing says that, uh, what it is to be a man has been, um, [00:45:00] labeled as fundamentally toxic and destructive. And for men coming into adulthood in that environment who were said that their manhood just by virtue of its existence is bad, um, is a very, very harmful, uh, thing to experience. And, um, like I said earlier, I think men are made for missions, we're made for adventure, we're made for conquering. Um, and to grow up in that environment, uh, I mean, you have an intense identity crisis from day one on your hands. And so I would encourage anyone who hasn't tuned in and Jordan Peterson to listen to him. He is on the, on the cultural front, um, somewhat polarizing figure that didn't bother me. I think anything of substance, um, will polarize. Um, but, you know, listen to him with an open mind and an open heart. Um, he's got gobs of stuff online to listen to. I just decided a few years ago that I would enroll myself in what I call [00:46:00] Jordan Peterson Academy. Didn't exist at that point, but I said, I'm going to do a deep dive and see what's there. Um, and interestingly enough, even though he's not a Christian or it wasn't at least, um, and I am, um, he reintroduced the Bible to me in a way that, um, I'd never experienced. In fact, his Bible teaching quote unquote has been some of the most transformative I've ever experienced just in his personal pursuit of trying to understand what it is in this book that has allowed the phenomenon of Western civilization to emerge. Um, so Jordan Peterson, drama triangle. Um, other resources? I'm going to leave it at that. Cause those have been two of the most significant to be honest with you.

Mike Forrester: Yeah. Those are pretty impactful.

Andrew Petty: Yeah.

Mike Forrester: For me, like when you're talking about a responsibility, another one for me was like Jocko Willink, um.

Andrew Petty: Extreme Ownership, that whole idea.

Andrew Petty: I realize we're at time, but I feel like there's one thing I'd like to add in order to help make sense of my story even more. Um, and it's that about four years ago, the anxiety was still there, and most of my efforts had been largely to get rid of it, um, to, to fight it, to combat it, to make it go away. And I just reached this point of exasperation. It wasn't some sudden flash of wisdom or insight, it just like, Oh, you're still here. And I just sort of, in my heart and in my mind's eye, turned to it and went, well, what are you here for? I didn't get a response back, but I began to relate to the anxiety differently. I acknowledged it. I didn't just try to push it away and slowly but surely the anxiety became an unexpected, but strangely welcome ally because I began to see myself differently and I began, it began to inspire me and create and be a source of creativity for me. Um, and it's very difficult to describe what [00:49:00] happened, but I would just encourage anyone who is dealing with some sort of internal demon like that, that a better way to, in my experience, a better way to quote combat that thing, is to stop resisting it, to pause and ask what it's there for. Um, you could say the same of any kind of stuckness we're experiencing, because instinctively when stuckness shows up in our lives, we want to get rid of it. Ah, can I move past this? And stuckness is always there to tell us something. And the right way to interact with stuckness is to pause and go, what are you here for? You've got a message. Um, and in that way, we can then receive the message we need to receive and find a new way forward. And it was really out of renovating my relationship with anxiety. Again, not out of any stroke of genius on my part, but out of exasperation, that then it became a source of creativity for me. And the Graveyard Group grew out of that. And the podcast grew out of that as I realized, Hey, I've been wrestling with mortality in an anxious and neurotic way all these years, maybe others of [00:50:00] us in the affluent Western world don't think about it enough. And it turns out that's true, on a conscious level. However, each of us is living each moment of every day on some level in relationship to our mortality. And typically if it's not being consciously brought to the forefront of our hearts and minds, we're living in reaction to and avoidance of our mortality. And that really is a very poor motivation for a full life. And what I've discovered is that as I've embraced mortality and brought it close to me, it's begun to heal me of the very thing that used to, um, be just so destructive in my life and it's life affirming. And so I hope anybody listening can understand that in courageously and voluntarily engaging our mortality, uh, we fortify ourselves and we fill ourselves with life and energy. And it is the most life affirming, most empowering and encouraging thing we can do is to actually embrace our mortality. Um, so again, whatever it is that you find besetting you, [00:51:00] pause, relax, turn around, address that thing, ask what it's there for, and you'll be surprised with what you find. One of the things I've found is that the thing that I've hated all my life and considered emasculating and weak and shameful has become a superpower for me. And I'm sure Mike, you, there are areas of your life you can relate to are like that. And many of our, many of the folks listening can relate to that. So, um, our imperfections are a key to understanding our purpose in the world. Our story and our purpose in the world are inseparable. Thanks for, thanks for letting me add that last little bit.

Mike Forrester: Absolutely. I think it's so funny as like, you're talking about that, I'm like pain avoidance, mortality, thought avoidance, responsibility avoidance. That's how we get in trouble. At least I know that was like the straight and narrow path, you know, it's like, uh, where's this going to get you? So, yeah, well, um, let's jump back to, like how can guys reach out to you, man? Where can they connect?

Mike Forrester: I appreciate it, my friend. Thank you so much for sharing. Uh, you know, so openly and about something that we really don't even think about, our mortality, and the extreme impact that can have, um, for us in our actions and decisions. So thank you, Andrew. I appreciate it, man.

Andrew Petty: My pleasure. And thanks for having me, Mike.

Mike Forrester: Absolutely.