Episode 395
Overcoming Rejection to Grow and Reach Your Dreams with Steven Solomon
Have you ever faced a roadblock or been rejected on the path to your dreams? In this episode, I sit down with Steven Solomon, a child and adolescent psychiatrist, who shares his journey of perseverance in the face of setbacks. It's frustrating when you encounter unexpected challenges on the road to success, it leaves you wondering if you should keep pushing forward or change direction. Steven shares how being denied admission to medical school gave him clarity and fueled his drive toward his dream. He reveals how to turn setbacks into stepping stones and pursue your dreams with renewed resilience and determination.
Steven's story is one of perseverance and personal growth. After his denial to medical school, he chose to reapply, ultimately finding his true calling in psychiatry. This experience became a turning point, shaping his perspective on life and his approach to helping others. Steven's open and honest reflections and relatable experiences offer encouragement in the midst of the struggle for self development and the transformative potential of emotional growth. His emphasis on being vulnerable, seeking consistent personal development and developing deep, meaningful relationships is a powerful message of hope and perseverance.
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Overcoming rejection and pursuing dreams leads to greater resilience and determination in your career journey.
- Seeking therapy as a professional is key to maintaining mental well-being and unlocking your full potential.
- Developing supportive friendships in adulthood provides a vital network for personal and professional growth.
- Transitioning careers toward personal fulfillment empowers you to live a more purpose-driven life.
- Embracing vulnerability and growth in men fosters emotional intelligence and authentic connections in both personal and professional spheres.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:14:29 - The Hardest Part is to Start
00:20:44 - Embracing Relational Development
00:23:50 - Gradual Self-Reflection and Growth
00:27:28 - Openness to Feedback
00:30:22 - Setting Boundaries in Conversations
00:34:54 - Pursuit of Happiness and Self-Advocacy
00:41:40 - Overcoming Challenges in Pursuit of Self-Worth
00:45:22 - Struggling with Worth and Value
Connect with Steven Solomon
Website
https://www.instagram.com/getinfellaspod/
Connect with Mike Forrester
Podcast Website
https://LivingFearlessTodayPodcast.com
Coaching Website
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hicoachmike/
Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/@hicoachmike
https://www.facebook.com/hicoachmike
https://www.instagram.com/hicoachmike
Transcript
Well, hello and welcome back, my friend, but this week, Steven Solomon joins me
Speaker:and Steven's got an interesting path that he has gone through applying to
Speaker:medical school, getting turned down, reapplying, making that traction.
Speaker:And how many times have, have we pursued our dream, the thing that we want, that's
Speaker:in front of us to hit that roadblock.
Speaker:And be left with that decision.
Speaker:Do I keep pushing or do I go a different direction?
Speaker:So I want you to hear Steven side why he did what he did and how it brought
Speaker:about a different perspective and viewpoint in his own life that kind
Speaker:of became that turning point for him.
Speaker:And so we're going to jump into some, some good conversation Steven
Speaker:does, uh, hosting as far as, um.
Speaker:Getting fellas, we're going to therapy and it's a different perspective because
Speaker:Steven is not only a clinician, like as far as, you know, somebody you
Speaker:would go to therapy for, but he's also going to therapy and I mean that right
Speaker:there, how many of us want to say, Hey, yeah, I'm helping, but I need help.
Speaker:That is like, so at the core, a like counter intuitive thing for many of us
Speaker:where it's like, I'm happy to help, but.
Speaker:Hey, man, I don't want to ask for help.
Speaker:And so I'm happy that Steven's got this perspective and I look forward to jumping
Speaker:in and having a conversation on it.
Speaker:So, Steven, how are you doing today, my friend?
Speaker:Happy to be here.
Speaker:Of course.
Speaker:Hey, uh, I don't know what your audience is called.
Speaker:The increasingly fearless fellows or something.
Speaker:We'll go with like that.
Speaker:So, uh,
Speaker:it works, man.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, Steven, let's, let's start out with what does life look like for
Speaker:you on the personal side of things
Speaker:So I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist.
Speaker:And for those who aren't as clear, that means you go to medical school.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You choose psychiatry as a specialty as opposed to pediatric surgery,
Speaker:et cetera, and then you specialize.
Speaker:And I have a special fellowship in working with children and adolescents.
Speaker:Really, that means families, couples, understanding dynamics and
Speaker:development and things like that.
Speaker:So, um, so that's like from a personal side, I ended up in Colorado.
Speaker:I grew up in Ohio and I came out to Colorado for residency in 2016 and.
Speaker:You know, I've just loved it here.
Speaker:I finished up my training in 2021 and been in Denver since then, planning
Speaker:to stay for the long haul, looking, you know, that, those kinds of things.
Speaker:Like if anybody feels bad about renting, I'm a 36 year old
Speaker:doctor and I still rent, right?
Speaker:So just looking to buy and, um, picked up skiing.
Speaker:I've got a great group of friends out here.
Speaker:We like to go to concerts at Red Rocks, one of the most legendary
Speaker:concert venues in the world.
Speaker:Um, Yeah, I have a close group of friends that maybe this will be
Speaker:inspiring for men in the audience.
Speaker:It really is the kind of support and friendship that I did not know was really
Speaker:possible in friend groups in my twenties.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:So, so thanks again for having me.
Speaker:I'm excited to talk, you know, mental health in my own journey.
Speaker:Well, let's, let's jump back to something you had talked about here as far as
Speaker:having friends now that you didn't really have back in your twenties and the
Speaker:value that they, they play in your life.
Speaker:Now, what, what was your friends kind of.
Speaker:Relationship or framework back in your twenties versus like now and what changed
Speaker:it so that you do have the friends because that's a struggle for many of us is.
Speaker:I, I'm just isolated alone.
Speaker:I've got my coworkers and I've got some guys that I kind of talk with.
Speaker:What, what changed and how did you get there?
Speaker:It's a depth, man.
Speaker:It's a depth.
Speaker:I mean, it's not to say, and I have lifelong friends that I'm extremely
Speaker:close with and friends from my twenties.
Speaker:When I say that, I just mean, you know, like my friend group
Speaker:was, was a bunch of me's.
Speaker:Back before I came to Colorado.
Speaker:So by that, I mean other straight white males interested in
Speaker:football and et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And so there was just a lack of depth because what what?
Speaker:Perspective of each other's did we have to gain because all of
Speaker:our lives were exactly the same.
Speaker:And so when I came to Colorado, I started in psychiatry residency.
Speaker:And so everybody could imagine what kind of doctors choose to be psychiatrists.
Speaker:Weird ones, ones with their own messed up stories.
Speaker:One looking to master their own childhood traumas and insecurities, right?
Speaker:Like it's not like you guys know doctors, you know, that weird person who.
Speaker:You know, that jerk or that weirdo that was going to be a, they probably became a
Speaker:doctor and they're still weird or a jerk.
Speaker:So I don't think psychiatry draws jerks, but what it did, at least
Speaker:at Colorado is it drew a literal rainbow of gender, socioeconomic
Speaker:status, corners of the country, gender, sexuality, color of your skin.
Speaker:I think what I've learned is, is the more experience that I've had
Speaker:with people that are not like me.
Speaker:The better of a person I've obviously become.
Speaker:And so that's what changed was I used to be nice and I've always been nice
Speaker:and I've always cared about people.
Speaker:Being kind implies not that you're treating people how
Speaker:you want to be treated.
Speaker:The golden rule, the platinum rule is the idea that we treat people
Speaker:how they want to be treated.
Speaker:I had no idea.
Speaker:What was going on for a person on the other side of the conversation
Speaker:I knew the rules of being nice I understood social tact for the most
Speaker:part and now that I have friends who were good at that kind of thing and
Speaker:were able to call me out on like.
Speaker:You know, like a part big part of my journey in entering therapy and
Speaker:the growth I've done is like other people bringing it to my awareness.
Speaker:I think I was pretty unaware of my own difficulties and I have a handful of like
Speaker:moments starting in my like late teenage years that have helped me piece together.
Speaker:Like, oh, people have been trying to tell you this in one
Speaker:way or another for a long time.
Speaker:And so it took like being in psych residency training for me to go.
Speaker:Dude, you're going to be people's therapist?
Speaker:You suck at this.
Speaker:And I don't think I would have sucked at being a therapist in general.
Speaker:I would, I sucked at being my own, like, doing emotions the way I
Speaker:would want patients to do them.
Speaker:And inevitably, you know, the reason I pitch on the podcast being both a patient
Speaker:and a practitioner, or like you said, a therapist and also in therapy, is
Speaker:That's what I feel like I would want.
Speaker:I would want somebody who's had to do it themselves, who's open and
Speaker:vulnerable, who's willing to be wrong.
Speaker:Like, I will tell people all the time, Mike, my patients, if I have somebody
Speaker:who tells me I'm wrong, or tells me I'm not understanding things right, or says
Speaker:something that I did not think about, I will stop the conversation and say, Thank
Speaker:you for teaching me something today.
Speaker:I'm not trying to be holier than thou.
Speaker:I want you to realize that if you think this is a one sided relationship
Speaker:between your doctor and you, I'm always learning at some point in my residency,
Speaker:my worldview changed that like.
Speaker:Every interaction you have is valuable to improving and changing the way you see
Speaker:the world and the way you see yourself and, you know, and things that let people
Speaker:at large and what I've said is since whatever that magical moment, actually,
Speaker:I know when that magical moment was, um.
Speaker:Nothing's ever been the same.
Speaker:I don't view the world the same way, I don't treat people the same way, I
Speaker:consume media differently, I treat myself differently, and it wasn't magic, as you
Speaker:guys will hear from my story, it was hard,
Speaker:hard frickin work, you know, and so, um.
Speaker:I don't sit here and pretend like, like it's just magic, because it wasn't.
Speaker:It was in the midst of a lot of hard work that that change
Speaker:and growth has come for me.
Speaker:Um, but I want to be here today to say that like, if you're a man sitting
Speaker:here and thinking I have emotional shortcomings, or I don't treat people
Speaker:as much as I, as well as I'd like to, or I don't treat my partner
Speaker:as well as I'd like to, welcome.
Speaker:To the human race, get on board y'all.
Speaker:That's exactly what I'm pitching is we were not taught this stuff as young men.
Speaker:We were not taught how to be emotional, vulnerable, authentic, insightful.
Speaker:We were not taught those things.
Speaker:In fact, it was the opposite.
Speaker:We were taught not to do any of those things and that those were womanly
Speaker:qualities or feminine qualities to have empathy and have insight into
Speaker:someone else's emotional, because inevitably as men, we were just taught
Speaker:to get these people out of our way.
Speaker:You know, and so I was just as bad as it is anyone else in America.
Speaker:My parents were great.
Speaker:They had rough lives themselves.
Speaker:They did as best they could with us.
Speaker:And for any number of reasons, I popped out insecure, emotionally avoidant, you
Speaker:know, low self esteem, like, like the majority of Americans, I would imagine.
Speaker:And it wasn't easy.
Speaker:Where I'm right now, it's hard for me to even imagine what the
Speaker:world used to be like for me and what life used to be like for me.
Speaker:It truly has changed that much, which is crazy to say it like that.
Speaker:Like, I don't really think about it like that, but as I reflect right
Speaker:now, it's like, I don't even remember how I used to think about people.
Speaker:And that's what I'm trying to push on my podcast.
Speaker:I really like that you're, you're doing the same thing, which is
Speaker:like, this is within your grasp.
Speaker:It truly is, and the hardest part is to start.
Speaker:We have to start somewhere, and it was not easy for me to start, Mike.
Speaker:I'm sure it was not easy for you to start.
Speaker:Um, and that's the hardest part.
Speaker:There's hard parts along the way.
Speaker:Nothing's as hard as saying, I need this help.
Speaker:I have to commit to it.
Speaker:I don't care how scary it is.
Speaker:I can't continue to sacrifice.
Speaker:And that's what men struggle with.
Speaker:Is that kind of the awareness that they need to the insight that they need to?
Speaker:There's there's a number of struggles, and it's like, Just taking action
Speaker:on one is the best place to begin.
Speaker:I do, I do want to touch on something you said when you're looking in
Speaker:hindsight that it was a magical moment that changed things for you
Speaker:at the time that that occurred.
Speaker:Did it seem like a magical moment or was it one of those where it
Speaker:was a hard, hard thing to traverse?
Speaker:Turned around and grabbed the book that I was reading at the time, okay?
Speaker:So, Body Keeps the Score, you read this book, you've had
Speaker:to have read this book, Mike.
Speaker:It's at the airport now, everybody, we're talking about
Speaker:trauma in mainstream culture.
Speaker:No, I wasn't.
Speaker:So, so residency training in psychiatry is quite interesting in that.
Speaker:I think it's asked backwards the way that we do it.
Speaker:So we start by you working in an inpatient psychiatric unit for the most part,
Speaker:and you like committing schizophrenic people, you know, that kind of intensity.
Speaker:And so you're really taught like medications, legal system, ethics of care,
Speaker:and, and, you know, committing people against their will for their own safety.
Speaker:So it's good.
Speaker:I still came into residency.
Speaker:I remember specifically, Mike, one of my favorite, you know,
Speaker:Jeff Peterson back in Cleveland.
Speaker:If you're watching this, love you, brother, you know, actually, Boo
Speaker:Browns go bangles, Jeff's great.
Speaker:My first year of internship, he was trying to get me to think about
Speaker:someone I would say psychodynamically.
Speaker:So that means like in a whole so psychodynamics is Freud stuff.
Speaker:Okay, it's the kind of thinking in a way of like understanding a
Speaker:whole person from a 360 degree lens.
Speaker:And Mike, I was a nice guy with hundreds of close friends, and when
Speaker:I got to residency training at age 28, I had no Idea how to understand
Speaker:people none into the point of Dr.
Speaker:Peterson trying to get me to, like, talk about somebody, not
Speaker:just like textbook symptoms, but like, why are they how they are?
Speaker:And I literally screamed, which is crazy that you'd scream at
Speaker:your boss as a medic as a doctor.
Speaker:But here we were.
Speaker:And I said, I just don't think about people that hard, which is mind
Speaker:boggling to to the point of now.
Speaker:All I do is think hard about people, Mike.
Speaker:Nobody is superficial.
Speaker:Nothing is surface level.
Speaker:I'm deep to a fault.
Speaker:It's freaking exhausting and I love it, right?
Speaker:And so when this magic moment came during your third year residency training is when
Speaker:you start to work in an outpatient clinic.
Speaker:So the kind of psychiatry that everybody would think of, which is like, you come
Speaker:to my office, let's talk about problems.
Speaker:Maybe I'll sprinkle a little Prozac on your head, whatever, right?
Speaker:So that was the year that I started Reading papers understanding about people
Speaker:and the body keeps the score was the book that in the middle of that, I just
Speaker:remember being like, Dear Lord, people are just this combination of genetics
Speaker:and environment and developmental trauma and that everything is inherently
Speaker:traumatic and we're doing the best we can.
Speaker:But that the core of things, Mike, is a sense of safety in the world.
Speaker:Everything comes back to how safe people feel, which is what the Body Keeps the
Speaker:Score touches on, is developmental trauma.
Speaker:If you haven't read this book, you know, Brain, Mind, and Body and the
Speaker:Healing of Trauma, the idea that our body holds, and we know this medically
Speaker:now, this is not in your head stuff, this is medically accurate, that
Speaker:the body holds on to our trauma.
Speaker:So, I had no Mike, way of thinking about that before I started residency,
Speaker:like If you'd asked me what PTSD was, I'd have been like, Oh, you were
Speaker:in the military or a car accident.
Speaker:No understanding of what happens with chronic childhood stress, poverty,
Speaker:divorce, you know, abusive parents, none.
Speaker:And I look back now and I'm not from a part of the world
Speaker:where that stuff didn't happen.
Speaker:In fact, I reflect on it.
Speaker:It was probably quite common in the homes of my, of my classmates in kind of a lower
Speaker:middle class community in Cincinnati.
Speaker:And so I just, whatever, if I was lucky, if I was oblivious, if I was blind
Speaker:to it, And that was the magic moment.
Speaker:I don't imagine it was magic because I had at least two years of training
Speaker:leading up to that moment, but me just to go, Oh, this is how I'm supposed to be
Speaker:thinking about people, or this is the way I would like to think about people, right?
Speaker:It's all kind of theories, which is whack because I feel like my
Speaker:theory is Pretty spot on, right?
Speaker:Like we're like, we're just all trying our best with the bull crap hands we
Speaker:were given, you know, like whatever.
Speaker:So, so honestly, that's the moment where I just was like, and since that moment
Speaker:I've inhaled everything and it's not even just everything I guess I've read.
Speaker:All the papers, all the books, not all the books.
Speaker:People recommend books to me all the time.
Speaker:I can't keep up with every great mental health books out there.
Speaker:I haven't read them all.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But like the idea of learning how to understand people shortly after that is
Speaker:when I started my own therapy because I looked back and reflected on points in
Speaker:my life and was like, are you, I can't believe you were so bad at this stuff.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I was pretty hard on myself about it at the beginning, but that's part
Speaker:of the journey is just being like, well, you can understand someone
Speaker:else's perspective as just doing the best they could all the time.
Speaker:And the ultimate freedom is when you're able to say that to yourself, to be
Speaker:able to just be like, I'm, I'm doing the best that I was doing the best
Speaker:that I could at that moment, there's no real reason to beat myself up about
Speaker:it anymore because like, I can't change it and it is what it is, you know?
Speaker:And so, um, so that was the moment of just like, now, if I travel abroad,
Speaker:I want to understand a culture in a way that I never would have before.
Speaker:If I watch a TV show, fiction, like on, on the get infels podcast, we use fiction.
Speaker:To teach psychological concepts defense mechanisms transference
Speaker:relationship stuff So it's like everything that I watch now is through
Speaker:that same developmental relationship lens that can be a relationship
Speaker:with yourself Other people your boss your loved ones your kids, whatever.
Speaker:It's all relational um, it's relational developmentals like the combo that
Speaker:I kind of describe how I view it so I Gents listening, gender neutral
Speaker:homies and fearless fellows, right?
Speaker:Like I was terrible at this stuff and I honestly, and this is not
Speaker:shooting my own horn, I love my job and I'm fricking awesome at it.
Speaker:And to be able to say without imposter syndrome that I help the people I work
Speaker:with, I know I do and it's, it's, you know, I'm tearing up thinking about it.
Speaker:Like, that's not like a thing that everybody gets in their jobs.
Speaker:It's not a thing that everybody gets.
Speaker:And so to your point, like it was not a straightforward path for me to get here.
Speaker:Um, it's, you know, starting the podcast has come with its own insecurities
Speaker:also like, and, Again, it's hard for me to imagine what life would be
Speaker:like if I hadn't taken this stuff on.
Speaker:I, I truly do not know what it would look like, and it's, it's, it's scary in ways.
Speaker:I mean, I'm happy I don't have to face that, but I have no idea.
Speaker:I have no idea.
Speaker:So, uh, yeah, I mean, it feels good as I'm sure everybody can
Speaker:hear through the microphone.
Speaker:And I think the differentiating factor there is how many of us have been at
Speaker:that point where we do look back on our life and where we've come from.
Speaker:And there's that regret of what if I had made this decision?
Speaker:The thing I like about what you've done, Steven, is, you know, you, you said,
Speaker:Hey, my, these people had to, you know, show me, and I had people that were
Speaker:telling me this stuff and then I went to therapy and I'm learning about these
Speaker:things that, you know, I really didn't have like, uh, a visible or conscious
Speaker:understanding of, but you're open to it.
Speaker:You know, you're, you're not just sitting there at whatever, you're just a whack.
Speaker:I, you know, you're seeing things in the distorted reality.
Speaker:How did you open yourself up to other people?
Speaker:You know, both both the people you're going to school with your friends
Speaker:and then your therapist to say, Hey, let me Let me filter this, let
Speaker:me see, does this hold truth or is this something I can just pass off?
Speaker:How did you open yourself up to what they were telling you?
Speaker:It's hard to say man, honestly, like it's a great question.
Speaker:How did I, I mean, it's gradual, any of that kind of thing.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:I don't know that I don't still battle with like, I think I know
Speaker:best right now, all the time, right?
Speaker:But like, as a good example, I'll try and like, as I tell another
Speaker:story, think on how did it change, like So I'm an excitable guy,
Speaker:obviously, as you've already met.
Speaker:And like my mind can, can get away from me.
Speaker:And that's not something that's like uncommon, right?
Speaker:Like a bipolar spectrum depression.
Speaker:So it's, it's like my friends all know that, you know, I've talked with them.
Speaker:Not they, they just take it.
Speaker:Like I've openly said, if you're worried about me, please say something.
Speaker:Cause I don't know that I'm always going to have insight into how I'm doing.
Speaker:Now that's improved enormously, but to a point in my life where I
Speaker:was really not doing well and I did not have insight and it was bad.
Speaker:So, uh, you know, recently, as recently as two weeks ago, one of my friends was
Speaker:like, the podcast is, is a lot of work.
Speaker:Are you doing okay?
Speaker:Like, you know, we can kind of tell.
Speaker:And I literally just sat, I turned to my friend, Mark, one of my best friends
Speaker:and was like, Let me hear it, you know, just like, what are you worried about?
Speaker:What's going on?
Speaker:What are you noticing?
Speaker:Because like, I mean, God, who, who would I be if I couldn't do that?
Speaker:I mean, it's, it's, it's like, of course I get frustrated and I get defensive
Speaker:and I just am better at calling those things out right now to be like, Hey,
Speaker:I'm, I just, I'm getting defensive here.
Speaker:Let me just take a second and like, go take a breath.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like, but having insight into those behaviors, man, it took a lot of work.
Speaker:I like, I guess I can give some examples of the things that have come up.
Speaker:Maybe that'll help paint the picture.
Speaker:One of my friends when I was a teenager said, I can't tell if
Speaker:you're the most confident or the most insecure person on earth.
Speaker:And that's a weird vibe to be putting out there.
Speaker:That took me years to understand that was the vibe I was putting
Speaker:out onto the world, which is not.
Speaker:It is strange because I would agree with those at the same time.
Speaker:I probably was portraying very confidently while also being very insecure.
Speaker:And I think both those things were true.
Speaker:I felt both those things at the same time.
Speaker:One of my friends in my early residency training was like, do
Speaker:you understand the only emotion you're in touch with is anger?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:And I just, she's like, just, just, just take that with ya and see
Speaker:this before I started in therapy, like take that with you and just,
Speaker:just see how it feels, right?
Speaker:I didn't cry until I was 30 years old, Mike, and now I cry
Speaker:all the time, all the time.
Speaker:You just saw me do it one minute ago, and I'm gonna do
Speaker:it again during this interview.
Speaker:It's bonkers.
Speaker:One of my friends, when I was talking to her about socializing, and I
Speaker:was like, Come on, just like, do this, and it'll be good for you,
Speaker:and she's like, Do you understand?
Speaker:That not everybody's wired like you are, like, not, like, socializing is not as
Speaker:easy for other people as it is for you.
Speaker:And like, yeah, you know, and so I just, like, it's been those moments where I
Speaker:do think I'm in a fortunate position where because of where I ended up doing
Speaker:residency in psychiatry specifically, like, My friends, and again, that
Speaker:diverse friend group with a bunch of experiences, like, we were constantly
Speaker:pushing each other in ways of honesty that most friendships just don't have.
Speaker:I know my, my fellow therapist friends, psychiatrist friends,
Speaker:at a depth that I would imagine very few people know each other.
Speaker:And, and so it allows when Mark tells me, I'm worried about you, I have every
Speaker:faith that he understands me up, down, left, right, top, bottom, and that there
Speaker:is no reason to do anything besides turn to him and say, let me have it.
Speaker:What are you worried about?
Speaker:What, what do you see?
Speaker:And it was a good conversation.
Speaker:In fact, Mark and I share the same therapist, LOL.
Speaker:And, uh, felt like it went well for both of us.
Speaker:Uh, you know, it's psychiatrist who takes care of psychiatrists.
Speaker:It's funny.
Speaker:So that's my guy, shout out Heath.
Speaker:So it's just, it's just like,
Speaker:dude, I was as stubborn as anybody could be.
Speaker:I, I joke all the time.
Speaker:My favorite thing growing up was holding a grudge.
Speaker:I loved it.
Speaker:A familial trait, honestly, in my family.
Speaker:And now I can't be mad at anybody.
Speaker:Because I can explain exactly why they did what they did, it
Speaker:takes me seconds to do that.
Speaker:And so it's like, how could I be mad at somebody if I can explain, knowing
Speaker:a minute of their story, I can explain exactly why they did what they did.
Speaker:And now, that does not excuse violence, that does not excuse other
Speaker:forms of abuse and neglect, no way.
Speaker:But like, personal little slights, whatever, whatever.
Speaker:Even in violence, I, I can understand why.
Speaker:Now you still need to be held accountable.
Speaker:I don't, I don't, you know, buy any of that.
Speaker:We all know violence is wrong and just, just, yeah, it's,
Speaker:it's hard to put in words, Mike.
Speaker:I think you can see that.
Speaker:I, I, it's honestly making me think about is, am I as open to
Speaker:feedback as I would like to be?
Speaker:And I think I am, right?
Speaker:But that's, I think like the idea that in my head that I, I, Should I'm always open.
Speaker:I don't know man.
Speaker:Every time I pitch the podcast to somebody I end it with hey We're always
Speaker:open to feedback, you know and I just want I think that's just like how I
Speaker:want to be in the world and Maybe I'll have friends of mine who will listen
Speaker:to this and be like dude But like I know that what I do know is that I've
Speaker:come so far And that if you're going to have this stance, you can never claim
Speaker:to be perfect at something like that.
Speaker:So, cause otherwise you're not open to feedback anymore.
Speaker:If you're not, if you're saying that you're, you are the best at being
Speaker:open to feedback, well, bless it.
Speaker:Then you, you know, you're probably not learning much anymore.
Speaker:So
Speaker:yeah, it's tough, but the struggle can be.
Speaker:Hey, I'm open to feedback, Steven, tell me the stuff if you tell me the stuff and
Speaker:then I don't either give it credibility or take action on it as a repeated pattern,
Speaker:then our message of, hey, I'm open to feedback loses its strength, right?
Speaker:Doesn't mean that it's an easy thing to hear you go.
Speaker:Hey, Mike, you're falling short here.
Speaker:I'm concerned about this.
Speaker:What do you see that's going on?
Speaker:It doesn't Yeah.
Speaker:You know, make that an easy process.
Speaker:It's still something to work through and it's still something
Speaker:I'm working through as well.
Speaker:Uh, you know, it, it's like sometimes you catch me at the wrong point.
Speaker:I'm not going to be open to it because there's other stuff that's
Speaker:pushed, you know, pushed buttons.
Speaker:It's gotten me in a certain mental or emotional state that it's like,
Speaker:Hey, let's revisit this later right now is not the best time.
Speaker:Um, and being able to set
Speaker:a boundary like that within a conversation mic is so foreign to most to be like,
Speaker:like to have the self awareness of like, I'm not regulated right now.
Speaker:And I'm only going to make this situation worse.
Speaker:You know, that's a big dialectical behavioral therapy stuff, which it's
Speaker:like first calm down, slow it down, and if you can't do that within this
Speaker:interpersonal dynamic, then bounce temporarily, not flee, not fight or
Speaker:flight, go take a minute and come back when you can actually hear the
Speaker:feedback and use your best skills.
Speaker:Yeah, and so I think everybody tries to step in conflict with passion, and
Speaker:it's like, no, no, no, no, no, nothing was ever solved when I, when both
Speaker:sides were passionate, because how on earth could you come to compromise?
Speaker:You can't, you couldn't, you wouldn't, you shouldn't, you
Speaker:know, so, so that's the hard part.
Speaker:I mean, we see it.
Speaker:In all walks of life, things play out like that.
Speaker:So as you're sitting there, it is important, like what you said,
Speaker:recognizing you've made progress, you know, not going, I'm the finished
Speaker:product of who I'm going to be, but I'm in a better state than I was.
Speaker:How do you take it from that point and then go?
Speaker:Hey, I'm I've not arrived.
Speaker:I'm not who I want to be, but this is what I'm shooting for.
Speaker:Not, you know, not like a new year's resolution because those are, you
Speaker:know, fleeting and gone in two weeks.
Speaker:Most of the time, but something that's longer, more permanent
Speaker:of these are my values.
Speaker:This is my perspective.
Speaker:This is what I want to, uh, show up as in life to my coworkers,
Speaker:my family, my spouse, my friends.
Speaker:How do you kind of still set.
Speaker:The path that you're going forward.
Speaker:I. I think that what's interesting, I'm going to answer this in a weird way,
Speaker:but I think it's right, is that ever since I was really young, uh, you know,
Speaker:the world, essentially post 9 11, Mike, and my generation has been weird, and
Speaker:people have been pretty disenfranchised with the world, pretty disillusioned
Speaker:with the world, and I've always just said to people, Well, eff it, we
Speaker:might as well go down swinging, right?
Speaker:And so I've always had that thought, and I've lost it for a while, and I've
Speaker:lost it when I've been more depressed, but it's still the core of who I am,
Speaker:is like, I care, and I almost can't not care, and it sits uncomfortably with
Speaker:me when I'm not caring, and trust me, I take care of myself, I chill, I ski,
Speaker:I have fun, I whatever, but like, If I don't have something that I'm doing
Speaker:that, that, that I feel like is doing to the greater good, then I don't, I
Speaker:don't know, again, I don't want everybody here thinking they need to be like self
Speaker:sacrificing because I, I had to quit a job that felt like it was worsening my
Speaker:state and I, I couldn't contribute either to the job or myself like I wanted to.
Speaker:So, so it is about self advocacy.
Speaker:You can't stay in a situation that's making you not at your best.
Speaker:So I think that's kind of it is like, I always have this.
Speaker:This mentality, uh, we joked about grit earlier.
Speaker:I don't know who would define me as gritty, but like, it's, it's like a,
Speaker:it's like, I'm going to go down swinging.
Speaker:And if I lose touch with that feeling and I become more apathetic.
Speaker:That does not sit well with me.
Speaker:And it's an immediate, that is the focus of what's going on in my world.
Speaker:Why, why am I caring less?
Speaker:Why am I feeling less empathetic?
Speaker:Why am I more apathetic?
Speaker:Um, because that tells me something's wrong.
Speaker:It's not inherent to who I am.
Speaker:So how do I keep pushing it?
Speaker:I mean, I have a disillusioned, you know, rose colored glasses
Speaker:idea, Mike, that this world could suck less than it does right now.
Speaker:And let me tell you, that's going to take a lot of work
Speaker:on everybody's part to change.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:You know, you have to take care of yourself, you have to stay grounded,
Speaker:you have to stay humble because I like to joke that I think the complex
Speaker:problem of mental health in this country is actually quite a simple
Speaker:solution, but that's nonsense, right?
Speaker:Like, it's the kind of nonsense that you can all tell that I get
Speaker:a little loopy sometimes, right?
Speaker:Like, it's, it just, it just, it just is, you know, nothing is that simple and I
Speaker:understand that, but like, I'm going to consistently try and figure out what I
Speaker:can do to play a role in that, and, you know, it's, my life, it's, it's been,
Speaker:okay, do advocacy at the state level for education and, and social emotional
Speaker:learning, done that, used to be a teacher, worked in inner city schools, became
Speaker:a doctor, became a shrink, worked with veterans, worked in prisons, worked in
Speaker:schools, like, I still don't know what I as an individual can make an impact, but
Speaker:I sleep pretty darn well at night, Mike, knowing that I tried my best every day.
Speaker:And if people are sitting here listening and thinking, man, my job doesn't
Speaker:sound that fulfilling or feel that fulfilling, well, it's okay, you can
Speaker:change, there's nothing that's telling you can't, and I'm sorry that your
Speaker:healthcare is tied into your insurance and your job and that's failure of the
Speaker:American system, but you're not trapped.
Speaker:You're not stuck.
Speaker:Most of our most difficult emotions come from when we feel
Speaker:trapped and when we feel stuck.
Speaker:And Mike, you know, you brought up me wanting to tell my story like, guys, when
Speaker:I took the traditional route, I applied to medical school, like anyone does.
Speaker:I was a okay student with an okay MCAT score with, with whatever, and I didn't
Speaker:get anywhere the first time I applied.
Speaker:It, terrible, I did not get into medical school, I'm staring down
Speaker:the barrel, graduated from college, with a biology degree, which is
Speaker:essentially useless on its own, and thinking like, well, now what?
Speaker:You know, so, that is a moment of, of, I don't know, I kind of lost
Speaker:where I was going, so I'll just finish telling the story, but like,
Speaker:you know, From that moment, it really forces you to decide, are you
Speaker:going to be in or out on this goal?
Speaker:Um, and what's so interesting for me, Mike, is why I wanted to
Speaker:become a doctor in the first place, didn't have much depth to it.
Speaker:I actually wanted to be on ESPN and be a sports analyst, like a sportscaster.
Speaker:Um, And then in my freshman year of college, I had a chin strap,
Speaker:beard diamond study earrings.
Speaker:This was in like the double popped polo age at Ohio state.
Speaker:And I just was like, this is when the ESPN was hiring Aaron
Speaker:Andrews and like Keyshawn Johnson.
Speaker:And I was like, well, I'm not a hot chick.
Speaker:I'm not an ex athlete.
Speaker:So what will I do?
Speaker:I'll just become a doctor because that's what smart kids do.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So it really wasn't.
Speaker:Like, I had a, a hardcore reason, and honestly, maybe it was the narcissism
Speaker:of, of wanting to get in the second time, wanting to be a doctor, wanting
Speaker:to say that I was a doctor, because I told everybody that's what I was gonna
Speaker:do, I mean, who knows, but it was not forthright reasons, and it wasn't until
Speaker:I found psychiatry as my specialty that I really It really clicked again, even
Speaker:before the magic moment I wrote on my personal statement So you write like an
Speaker:essay when you're applying to residency?
Speaker:and I wrote a whole essay on on The pursuit of happiness, you know, life
Speaker:and liberty is finite concepts, and yet happiness is an ongoing pursuit.
Speaker:So even before I was any good with my emotions, I had this
Speaker:understanding that happiness was a concept that is not easily defined.
Speaker:As much as science and research would like to think we, we, we understand
Speaker:it, you know, we don't because it means something different to everybody.
Speaker:It's culturally different.
Speaker:And that Why do I keep being open to feedback, Mike?
Speaker:I don't know, because even as a, as a really 25 year old who didn't know
Speaker:anything, I understood that happiness is probably never final, and it's, it's
Speaker:probably never safe, uh, and you can never just like rest on the moment to assume
Speaker:you're gonna be happy, and maybe that's because I wasn't always happy growing up,
Speaker:and because those moments were fleeting for me, but, you know, you, all we can
Speaker:do is kind of scrap at it, you know, and that, that's why I think that I, Hey,
Speaker:stick with it, because it's gotten better.
Speaker:It just has gotten better year by year, so it's like, I tell people all
Speaker:the time, I've been in therapy for six years and I'm gonna keep going for the
Speaker:rest of my life as long as Everything continues on the track that it's on
Speaker:because I, I don't see it as something you do when you're having problems.
Speaker:I see it as, you know, we talk about it on our podcast is like, this is going
Speaker:to the gym regularly for maintenance.
Speaker:This is stretching before your workout.
Speaker:This is, you know, making microscopic gains.
Speaker:Therapy is not steroids.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Therapy is good, healthy maintenance exercise.
Speaker:Uh, and we know a lot of people do pathologic exercising, Mike,
Speaker:so that's a whole separate.
Speaker:Conversation that exercise is not always good for us.
Speaker:So, um, but yeah, man, I just don't think there's a choice for people.
Speaker:I, at least not for me.
Speaker:I'm not, I'm just, yeah.
Speaker:There's, there's a choice.
Speaker:I mean, there's the choice that's the right route for health and is harder,
Speaker:or there's the route that many of us have taken, which is medicating,
Speaker:ignoring, you know, choosing to bottle up our emotions, right?
Speaker:There's a whole slew of other choices that lead us down a path that doesn't
Speaker:get us to like what you talked about, that, that place of happiness that.
Speaker:Then we're in relationships with other people that aren't
Speaker:happy and we're not happy.
Speaker:And so it's like misery loves company, man.
Speaker:Yeah, we're in our
Speaker:own minds, you know, so you're right, mike.
Speaker:Maybe it's that I fully know there's a choice, right?
Speaker:I can't make people do the things that I want them to do
Speaker:when they come to treatment.
Speaker:I think I just mean for me, I don't really have a choice anymore.
Speaker:I don't think that I don't think that being complacent would sit well with me,
Speaker:um, or becoming, uh, half most confident person, half most insecure person on
Speaker:earth, I think what's been good for me is that I can be honest about both those
Speaker:parts of who I am, and that I am a good combination of both of those things,
Speaker:and let me tell you guys, I really don't care what anybody thinks of me
Speaker:anymore, which is crazy, because Mike, growing up, I cared so much About what
Speaker:people thought of me and I'm just over it, which is quite, it's quite freeing.
Speaker:I'll tell you the people from your life and your childhood and the younger you
Speaker:are that they, it's hard to shed that.
Speaker:That's the hardest final boss stuff in therapy, but the
Speaker:average person or whatever.
Speaker:I'm doing me.
Speaker:You're in or you're out.
Speaker:That's okay.
Speaker:You're a good person.
Speaker:I'm a good person Let's just go or you know, whatever, you know, you're not
Speaker:gonna vibe with everybody Um, but I think those are some of like the final
Speaker:goals of therapy is like to be cool Implies that you really are confident who
Speaker:you are and you don't care what people think I was never cool Until recently
Speaker:and more recently the last few years and now man I don't care, you know, so
Speaker:so so yeah that just just in that way.
Speaker:. It was not like that for me, guys.
Speaker:I've had to work very hard on it, and I would say a thousand
Speaker:times over, it's been worth it.
Speaker:Well, the coolness, honestly, feels like when you become confident in who you are.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And understand, not everybody is going to see you.
Speaker:In an acceptable way, some people are going to go, dude, you don't measure up.
Speaker:That's okay.
Speaker:I'm not your person.
Speaker:You're not my person.
Speaker:I'm fulfilling my expectations.
Speaker:I'm in a place of self worth, understanding my value, my purpose,
Speaker:my passion, and I'm following.
Speaker:Where I feel I'm supposed to go, there's all kinds of distractions along the
Speaker:way, people that, you know, when you live according to what you feel you're
Speaker:called to be, it's going to rub some people the wrong way because they're
Speaker:not taking that same courageous step, making that intentional decision and
Speaker:taking the action that's required to put yourself on a different path.
Speaker:You know, you, you read the book in, in residency.
Speaker:And it's like, wow, this, this kind of changes things.
Speaker:You have a conversation from a, a fellow resident.
Speaker:It gives you an opportunity.
Speaker:Do I want to choose to listen to what she says or just dismiss it?
Speaker:You know, it's, there are choices and decisions.
Speaker:It's like life is a choose your own adventure book.
Speaker:And
Speaker:maybe I'm not, I mean, like giving myself enough credit.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:It just, it just, I mean, talk about stuckness.
Speaker:Like you take on 300, 000 in med school debt.
Speaker:And it doesn't feel like I, I really, until I found psychiatry,
Speaker:Mike was so disillusioned with medical school that I met with my.
Speaker:My administration about dropping out and this is 200, 000 to the 300, 000
Speaker:and I was top 10 percent of my class of all the doctors who took board exams.
Speaker:I was in the top 10 percent of all doctors in this country and I didn't like it.
Speaker:I just did not like being a doctor and they're like, how
Speaker:on earth could you drop out?
Speaker:You can do anything you want.
Speaker:And I was like, yeah, being a doctor's lame reframe.
Speaker:Being a doctor in America is not really fun anymore.
Speaker:It stopped being fun a long time ago.
Speaker:And so it's unfortunate.
Speaker:We all know about healthcare administration and money and
Speaker:pharma and all that stuff.
Speaker:So that won't be this side tangent.
Speaker:So I've even had to glue myself together from like the thing
Speaker:I thought I wanted to do.
Speaker:You know, sparked a rough moment in my life where I then ran into psychiatry as
Speaker:like, Oh, this is the field where I can have the connection I had when I was a
Speaker:teacher that I can sit, I have time to sit with people, understand them at a depth.
Speaker:And I think, again, that's why it's reflective of my relationships.
Speaker:Now we all were learning how to do that stuff all at the same time.
Speaker:So I don't want to say we were like practicing on each other,
Speaker:but it's like, what a good skill.
Speaker:I mean, sure.
Speaker:You're practicing on each other, how to like, listen, be empathetic, understand.
Speaker:Not necessarily give advice, right?
Speaker:Like we validate and then we trust that the person across from
Speaker:us is, is an autonomous person.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:So we all get into these modes where we want to like give advice and
Speaker:tell somebody they're doing wrong.
Speaker:And it's like, if you, if you trust this person, then don't do that.
Speaker:They can handle it.
Speaker:Trust, show them that trust by you just listening and saying, okay, so
Speaker:what are you going to do about it?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And I think that's, you know, uh, I don't know, amongst the million
Speaker:lessons I've learned, it's hard to say where they come from.
Speaker:And, and the funny thing where you're talking about, you know, you're in
Speaker:the top 10 percent of, of the class, man, even in that position, we can
Speaker:struggle with our worth and our, our value in being in that place.
Speaker:And it's like, okay, wait a minute.
Speaker:Like.
Speaker:I can feel I'm in the bottom 10 percent and yet you're in the top 10 percent So
Speaker:it's like, like you talked about reframing and looking at where you're at, why you're
Speaker:doing it, you know, what are the options?
Speaker:It's like, I mean, this is, it's, it's again, these like connective
Speaker:pieces for people like you just have to get the priorities in order.
Speaker:And I'm not sure again, because everything's felt so gradual,
Speaker:like I didn't get into med school the first time I applied.
Speaker:So when I was studying for the board exams, which are like, Now it's pass
Speaker:fail in medical school, but it used to be the test that literally told you
Speaker:what specialty you could apply for.
Speaker:And so, like, whether you could be smart enough to be a neurosurgeon or rich
Speaker:enough to be a dermatologist, right?
Speaker:Or, like, you know, get into dermatology and then be rich.
Speaker:Like I didn't get in the first of my applied, I'm going to do
Speaker:as well on this test as possible.
Speaker:And I moved myself from the 45th percentile on the MCAT to the
Speaker:91st percentile on the board.
Speaker:And that is not because I'm a genius, Mike, it's because I think I worked harder
Speaker:on that test than any other person in this country, and that is not hyperbolic.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And so listen to this audience.
Speaker:My IQ amongst doctors is about the middle.
Speaker:And I worked harder than the next 40%, right?
Speaker:So, so that's like what, what this has been.
Speaker:And now what's so nice is I'm in a specialty where none of that matters.
Speaker:It's not competitive.
Speaker:Like, you know, you could want to be a psychiatrist as a med student.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:We'd love to have you.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so it's nice.
Speaker:It's like checking those things.
Speaker:Like, why did I find that to be so important?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:It hit me hard when I didn't get in the first time and I had to prove.
Speaker:And I think getting that score was a good moment where I was like, great.
Speaker:I don't have to question whether I'm smart enough to be at this table.
Speaker:I know I am right.
Speaker:And then deciding on a specialty, it was honestly like, like.
Speaker:It was a, I thought a good moment for me to be like, I mean, I, I was
Speaker:very depressed during the time and it really was hard, but to be like, just
Speaker:because you're financially strapped to becoming a doctor doesn't mean
Speaker:you should, if you don't like it.
Speaker:And so that's why I feel so fortunate to have ended up with psychiatry because
Speaker:I think you can all feel it off me.
Speaker:I love.
Speaker:This stuff.
Speaker:I bleed for it.
Speaker:I die for it.
Speaker:I also that's also hyperbolic, but like, I'll take any phone call.
Speaker:I will talk to any person.
Speaker:I will, you know, it changes the way I interact with people on the street.
Speaker:It changes the way that I treat homeless people, treats changes
Speaker:the way I treat, you know.
Speaker:People in other countries when I'm there.
Speaker:It's just, it's again, like I've said, it's hard.
Speaker:It's truly hard to understand what it felt like before this, because I know there's
Speaker:multiple hinge points where I don't know what my life would look like and.
Speaker:I love it so much with how I feel and how I act now, but it's really hard to
Speaker:imagine what it's what it would be like.
Speaker:Otherwise,
Speaker:good thing is you don't have to imagine, right?
Speaker:You know, you're living the life you're living, which you've been intentional.
Speaker:You've worked hard.
Speaker:You've, you know.
Speaker:Kind of been like, this aligns with where I'm going.
Speaker:Well, let's, let's transition from, uh, from what we've been talking about here on
Speaker:the last part to how can men connect and, and find you outside of the podcast here.
Speaker:I, I really appreciate that, Mike.
Speaker:So I will flash the logo.
Speaker:Maybe Mike can put it up.
Speaker:So we're sitting in my studio, which is also my apartment living room.
Speaker:So this is the get in fellows.
Speaker:We're going to therapy podcast.
Speaker:So, uh, if you're watching close, if you video Bill Walton.
Speaker:That's producer Richie, his dog Rambo, Mr.
Speaker:Rogers, and Sigmund Freud.
Speaker:So they were our first three inductees into the BroMotions Hall of Fame.
Speaker:So, the tagline, guys, it's frat boy turns shrink on a mission to introduce
Speaker:the world to a kinder, gentler bro.
Speaker:I would say that there's a lot of swearing and the content is authentic to who I am.
Speaker:So that's just a point that I'll make, is that I use my voice,
Speaker:right.
Speaker:And so that's the idea of this podcast is we can be who we are.
Speaker:We don't have to be feminine to get in touch with our emotions.
Speaker:None of this is just, just let's push back a little bit
Speaker:on all this stuff we were told.
Speaker:I'm giving people the opportunity to learn therapy in a relatable,
Speaker:accessible, open, warm, and welcome way.
Speaker:Everybody is welcome.
Speaker:Get in fellas pod on Instagram and all the other socials.
Speaker:. So I hope to see y'all on the ride soon, man.
Speaker:It's been a good time.
Speaker:And, uh, you know, I really hope Mike, you and I can, can kind of keep continuing
Speaker:to push on people and give men and people at large, the, the green light
Speaker:to, to, to learn and grow in ways that maybe they never thought they could.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Well, Steven, I appreciate it, my friend.
Speaker:Thank you very much.
